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#460509 - 01/26/18 09:23 PM Gross living area stats
avidstudent Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/09
Posts: 55
Loc: Long Island, New York
Hello and I am totally in love with learning the principles of BPO form filling to better help understand the values of a neighborhood and property.

By the way it is such a delight to be a part of this outstanding forum.

My wife and I desire to segway out of bank inspection work after going through two vehicles and now putting much strain on our third vehicle.

I am learning the ropes by analyzing one BPO form that had been offered to me.

I find though that in one instance gross living area stats are very difficult to obtain, and an exterior BPO prevents doing any measuring onto the subject property. I have endeavored to Google the subject property. One result offered a totally skewed figure which was far from the actual size of the area. One possible prospect is to Google Earth the subject property and endeavor to equate a measurement.

I am wondering how QC deals with inadequacies of this nature?

I have been encouraged to join NABPOP and was told that many questions will be resolved after becoming tested and certified.

This still doesn't change errors in data submission and the possible results of insufficient information being sent to a company.

Again, it is a privilege beyond words to be here and to learn many aspects of real estate agency activity and for starters BPO education.

If there are some educational sources that can be recommended, that would be enormously appreciated.

Thanks so much again.

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#460510 - 01/27/18 04:59 AM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: avidstudent]
Vermont Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 7950
Loc: Vermont's North-East Kingdom
Originally Posted By: avidstudent
". . . I am wondering how QC deals with inadequacies of this nature? . . ."

I'm now retired from doing any BPOs; but what I would do to avoid or fend off any QC challenges, was to simply visit the Town's Assessor (physically or on-line), and obtain an up-to-date copy of their data sheet for the subject property (the data used for taxation) which would include actual measurements taken by an Assessor who had been on the site or inside at original construction and/or was present for any dimension updates whenever any approved additions or improvements were being made on the property.

The accuracy of that authoritative data is usually unassailable by ANY Quality Control clerk.
_________________________
Dale C. Hittle of GOLDEN RULE PROPERTIES in Glover, Vermont
Where We're Always Striving To Put Together "THE FAIR DEAL"

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#460511 - 01/27/18 08:34 AM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: Vermont]
avidstudent Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/09
Posts: 55
Loc: Long Island, New York
As usual thanks for your highly informative help with this and so many other topics.

Likely, more questions are forthcoming and I will apply this valuable suggestion in this one instance, and I am sure with potentially others whereby sufficient data is not available or skewed data is presented.

Much, much appreciation.

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#460516 - 01/27/18 09:46 PM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: avidstudent]
Alexandra Offline
Member

Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 328
Loc: USA
Many states, municipalities, agents and appraisers calculate GLA differently. I contend SF as above ground living space, and use GLA to say gross living area including the finished basement areas.
Some people I've trained use GLA for above ground square footage, not mentioning the finished basement.

As for raised ranches and split level homes, this differs from one town to the next. It can make for a real challenge, so I'll mention it in the comments the way the town calculates the size.

If there are differences in your MLS vs. Assessor/tax or online information, just include a comment in your remarks about it.

That's your best bet.

Best of luck!
Alex

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#460517 - 01/27/18 10:01 PM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: avidstudent]
Alexandra Offline
Member

Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 328
Loc: USA
Edit to add:

I'm currently involved in an intra-state P&S sales contract, where I learned that the buyer lives in a state that requires a person (assuming to be certified?) to actually measure the SF of the listed property!

I can only assume that rule is a result of a lawsuit?

As noted, just cover yourself in your comments!

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#460518 - 01/28/18 06:12 AM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: Alexandra]
Bigtoe Online   content
Major Contributor

Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 2357
Loc: Outer Banks
Originally Posted By: Alexandra
a state that requires a person (assuming to be certified?) to actually measure the SF of the listed property!!


North Carolina is one of those states that requires a house to be measured.


Edited by Bigtoe (01/28/18 06:14 AM)
_________________________
Your Outer Banks real estate agent. Helping people buy and sell OBX real estate since 1989.

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#460522 - 01/28/18 12:58 PM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: Vermont]
avidstudent Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/09
Posts: 55
Loc: Long Island, New York
I'm now retired from doing any BPOs; but what I would do to avoid or fend off any QC challenges, was to simply visit the Town's Assessor (physically or on-line), and obtain an up-to-date copy of their data sheet for the subject property (the data used for taxation) which would include actual measurements taken by an Assessor who had been on the site or inside at original construction and/or was present for any dimension updates whenever any approved additions or improvements were being made on the property.

Hello again Vermont. I am going to visit the Town's Assessors office and have already endeavored to determine if there is an online provision for obtaining this information.

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#460523 - 01/28/18 02:03 PM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: Alexandra]
avidstudent Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/09
Posts: 55
Loc: Long Island, New York

Hello Alexandra and thank you for making those comparisons. In New York and on Long Island, the finished area above a basement is considered to be the GLA area if it is heated. A high ranch below ground level or any basement area, whether it is finished or not is not within the realm of GLA measuring.

It is a delight to know that you train in this field and have already met two wonderful and prospective sources of education; without yet committing to either. My wife and I are both licensed and had been with a wonderful Century 21 during our training years before entering into the rigorous bank and commercial insurance inspection field. CMA work is the only element of real estate training that we participated in. Doing BPO work to me is a wonderful way of enriching and enhancing what we do for clients and customers as we return to a broker again. I am dissecting an entire BPO form in its entirety to discern an expedient and yet accurate way of proceeding. As previously mentioned, we were encouraged to join one certification association. This forum and a more custom form of training would probably best be suited for any BPO activity we do within the confines of the Long Island area.

You bring up a good point regarding the variations from town to town. We were hoping to keep within the confines of one town for now, but we have multiple surrounding towns within proximity of our real estate work area.

Regarding, split level dwellings; they are measured here within their entirety excluding of course anything below ground level.

Our observation is that most MLS documentation does not contain GLA stats and in the instance of one case contained a totally skewed number. From my research thus far, public records similarly do not state very much in this behalf unless there is some online provision for doing this. I have no objection in doing what Vermont wisely stated, when mentioning going to the assessors directly. If multiple trips are required, then they are. One comment by an online researcher mentioned that disclaimer remarks may allow for the lack of specificity when no concise figures are available. One broker mentioned that the interpretation is suggestive, but not sure this relates to these particular figures. Again, though this raises the question that when NO FIGURE is posted, will this only raise red flags with QC?

This again prompts the need to obtain a more custom form of training to conform to the particular area being participated in while at the same time contending with different BPO company guidelines and QC rules. Numerous agents and brokers we have spoken with are CMA oriented.

Again, thank you for your valuable and potential assistance.

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#460524 - 01/28/18 02:43 PM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: Alexandra]
avidstudent Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/09
Posts: 55
Loc: Long Island, New York

In New York State the only one; other than doing an interior BPO; or the listing agent; who would go to the property and engage in the exercise of literally measuring the property and rooms; would be an appraiser; who would be additionally authorized to obtain these figures.

As previously mentioned, very few statistics that have been obtained thus far have become available to obtain this information, without significant research. A note indicating the efforts of the licensee when filling out the BPO form; as you mentioned; would forego many problems. Litigation towards the licensee may not hold in court, if the explanation is that there was no significant online data. This may be where a licensee will agree or withhold taking on the assignment. A careful look into E/O insurance dealing with the matter would be wise to look into as well.

I did notice appraiser telescopic measuring devices, but doubt these instruments can work when not onto the property and have been very efficient with surveying and blueprint design types of services.

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#460525 - 01/28/18 02:46 PM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: Bigtoe]
avidstudent Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/09
Posts: 55
Loc: Long Island, New York
Hello Bigtoe and what a formidable way to complete the information expediently and avoid potential problems.

Thanks.

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#460526 - 01/29/18 07:51 AM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: Vermont]
Long Walk Online   content
Member

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 372
Loc: New Hampshire
Originally Posted By: Vermont
The accuracy of that authoritative data is usually unassailable by ANY Quality Control clerk.

This is absolutely true. The few times any BPO requester challenged it in my experience was because either a) there had been significant additions/deletions since the last order or appraisal, or b) when there was a significant difference between the assessor's records and any prior order (BPO or appraisal). In those cases, the requester had to decide what GLA they wanted and I would value accordingly.

Disagreement over building size are issues of the day in all aspects of commercial: brokerage, leasing, property tax, appraisal, insurance, lending, eminent domain. Our MLS in SC for residential had a disclaimer that printed on every listing saying that the stated GLA was within 10% of the actual GLA. Most often, that size in MLS matched either previous listings and/or the assessor's records.

Two professionals, equally skilled, could measure the same building(s) (house, warehouse, youth summer camp) and arrive at very different conclusions because of errors in process, and understanding of definitions from various sources.

And that is the heart of measuring existing buildings: the measurement used in the valuation is ultimately a question of agreement by the parties. I never learned how to measure buildings because it was never required where I was working...and I'm glad I didn't.


Edited by Long Walk (01/29/18 08:29 AM)

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#460527 - 01/29/18 08:27 AM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: avidstudent]
Vermont Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 7950
Loc: Vermont's North-East Kingdom
I'm now reminded of a related situation from 12 or 15 years ago.

I was the Selling Broker on an Estate Property, an "L" Shaped Ranch, that had been listed by a C21 Affiliate; but I WAS NOT a Buyer Broker.

The Property was being handled by the Decedent's Daughter whio was also a General Lines Insurance Broker, including HomeOwner's Insurance . . . . and she knew everything.

This was good; because the C21 Listing Agent was a lazy guy who'd avoid doing anything that could be done by someone else, and he allowed the Executrix to spoon feed him ALL of the Property details, including the Gross Living Area's Square Footage (which was probably used for calculating the Insurance Premium as well).

I showed the Property to my New Jersey Customer who had wanted the "Million Dollar View", and this Property certainly satisfied that billet; it included views of Lake Memphremagog, Jay Peak, and several distant pastoral Dairy Farms in between . . . . and my Customer offered on it immediately and bought the Property with CASH within a couple weeks.

Then, about 3 years later, the Customer called me up saying he had learned that he been gypped and that the Listing had represented the Property as being the calculated Length X Width when, using that simplistic rectangle methodology on an "L" Shaped Ranch left almost a thousand square feet out of the end result . . . . so he wanted to sue me.

I told him that his beef wasn't with me; but with the Listing Agency, its Broker, and the Seller (Executrix) . . . . so I advised him of where to look for accurate information at the Assessor's Office and he then took it up with C21 and got a quick settlement of $35,000 or $40,000 to compensate him for the missing Square Footage (not enough, but it satisfied him).

So much for SLOPPINESS ! . . . . there are no Short-Cuts !
_________________________
Dale C. Hittle of GOLDEN RULE PROPERTIES in Glover, Vermont
Where We're Always Striving To Put Together "THE FAIR DEAL"

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#460528 - 01/29/18 09:08 AM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: Vermont]
Long Walk Online   content
Member

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 372
Loc: New Hampshire
Originally Posted By: Vermont
So much for SLOPPINESS ! . . . . there are no Short-Cuts !
And, a cautionary tale for everyone not directly involved!

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#460529 - 01/29/18 11:22 AM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: Long Walk]
Vermont Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 04/12/08
Posts: 7950
Loc: Vermont's North-East Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Long Walk
Originally Posted By: Vermont
So much for SLOPPINESS ! . . . . there are no Short-Cuts !
And, a cautionary tale for everyone not directly involved!

Yes, and there's a warning in there too about NOT opting to be a Buyer Broker for every warm body that comes down the Pike; as with the glory of that fancy title also comes a load of responsibility and "due diligence".
_________________________
Dale C. Hittle of GOLDEN RULE PROPERTIES in Glover, Vermont
Where We're Always Striving To Put Together "THE FAIR DEAL"

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#460530 - 01/29/18 11:40 AM Re: Gross living area stats [Re: Vermont]
Long Walk Online   content
Member

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 372
Loc: New Hampshire
Originally Posted By: Vermont
and there's a warning in there too about NOT opting to be a Buyer Broker for every warm body that comes down the Pike; as with the glory of that fancy title also comes a load of responsibility and "due diligence".
How often, do you suppose, agents fail to realize or remember that liability can extend beyond closing? Or that some of their fiduciary duties, like confidentiality, do likewise?

Risk is a never-ending business problem. You can see it when getting bids for new or renewal E&O insurance.

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