Kathy578- Did you actually read Realtor001's 2nd post, where some explainations were made? I don't see anyone telling anyone how to do their job. But perception is reality, huh?

We don't know your location, or industry, so really we don't know what your qualifications are, if any.

Here in Ohio, there are no licensing or educational requirements for HI's. There's no mandatory joining of an organization, either. From first hand experience as a Realtor, I can tell you that it makes no difference whether a HI is affiliated w/NAHI, or ASHI. There are good and not good HIs. Period.

One that had done an inspection for my buyer clients on a year old home told them that the wiring hooked up to the brand new electric stove was the wrong gauge, could cause a fire, and damage to the stove. At the time I didn't comment, because I am not a prof. HI, nor am I affiliated w/either of the two groups, as he was. However, I still researched the issue later that day. The HI was completely wrong. The gauge of the wire WAS the correct thing for that stove. And while this isn't the only reason the deal didn't go through, it did contribute.

All I'm saying, is that something's messed up, no matter how insignificant, yes, a HI absolutely should put it in the report. But, on the other hand, the HI really outta know what he's talking about in the first place.

I did not know certain qualifications were required to post my own personal opinions here. Evidently there seems to be a lot of speculation so I will post some things to my profile that hopefully will allow me to continue posting without there being so much angst about my identity.


Being in Ohio myself I know you to be absolutely correct. Although a bill has been introduced in the state legislation for regulating and licensing home inspectors no laws are presently on the books in this state. And to be honest I do not see this bill passing anytime in the near future because of the complexity of the bill itself.
KT if you want me to send you a link I will. The entire bill is online if you didn't already know about it.

Right again but if you think about it I know of no profession that has mandatory joining of an organization.

I agree 100%. Pledging to adhere to a specific code of conduct and canon of ethics, paying dues and being able to sport a logo in advertisements...regardless of the profession...does not an ethical person make.

How much research went into the qualifications of this individual inspector prior to his hiring? He may be a member of his own professional associations but was he a member of the BBB? In Ohio consumers can get a history of past complaints through the BBB's website even if they are NOT members. What about the Attorney General's site...they also have an online lookup to see how many complaints they have received AND they will send you documentation of the complaint including the outcome of their investigation upon request.
And what about the municipal and common pleas court records that are online and easily searched? Did anyone check to see if he had pending or past litigation in connection with his work? What about a criminal conviction?

Just because a particular state does not have stone cold laws regulating an industry this is not justification for a consumer to throw up their hands and feel they have to just take their chances on whomever they pick from the yellow pages. In this day and age with so much information on the internet that is FREE not to mention instant there is no excuse for any consumer to say they had no way of knowing anything about the guy other than what he himself advertises. Evidently the affiliation logos he advertises did the trick for him to be selected. You yourself said you do not put a lot of stock in these memberships So I'm not really sure how or why he was selected.

Okay but being wrong is not a crime. It means he's human. It means the building code may have recently changed and he was not aware of it...you did say the house was new? What was his recomendation in connection with his finding??? Did he state that an electrician of your choosing should look at it to be sure?

Did you mean to say he lied? If so can you connect the lie to an ulterior motive such as writing up an estimate to do repair or getting a kickback from a buddy he referred to repair the alleged defect?

And how was this determined? These little details are important.

I agree whole heartedly. However in the example you gave there is hardly enough information to determine if we are talking about an honest mistake that was later re-checked by a licensed electrician that he stated should be consulted. I have no idea what his actions or reccomendations were following his discovery of, in his opinion, to be faulty wiring. THAT to me is the telling part. Saying he was wrong and it contibuted to blowing your deal is not telling the whole story. It just leaves the HI in a bad light and supposedly proves a point I am not grasping.

I agree that anyone holding themselves out to be an expert in any field whether licensed and state regulated or not has a duty to the consumer to be honest and fair in all their business dealings. Making an honest mistake is NOT initself illegal or deceptive but if you can show cause that makes his findings were to intentionally defraud the customer then he should be raked over the coals and reported to the consumer protection division of the Attorney General's office...this can also be done online.

Black balling him amongst yourselves in your office protects NO ONE if you truly believe he wronged your client. (also it's not legal in Ohio)

No matter how well versed we are in our profession we ...not one single one of us....are immune to making a mistake.

When I refinanced my home awhile back I drew out some of the equity. I was to receive a check for $16,000 dollars. Instead I received a check for over $24,000. I sat there and looked at it...looked at the settlement statement and thought what the hell????
Everyone had started getting up from the table and the title person asked is there a problem... I said not for me but I think your books may not balance correctly if I cash this check or someone is going to come up short. She looked at it and went over the papers and went white as a ghost when she saw the error. Point is someone made a mistake. Did I hold it against the company, no. Had I seen a motive in the mistake where they tried to gain something from the mistake like cheating me out of several thousand then there would have been a major ugly problem.

Am I taking the HI side? NO. I just don't know enough about all the details left out to see this as an example of an HI blowing a deal by unnecessary reporting. I would like to know if you care to offer the details.

What a load of bull.

When I act as a buyers agent my primary concern is that my clients do what is right for them. I have never complained about a very detailed report and never will.

What I complain about are inspectors that lack the people skills necessary to convey their findings in a manner that does not alarm the buyer.

When there is a problem that needs immediate attention spell it out ie.. before purchase.

If it is a general maintainence item that will have to be addressed at a later date after purchase then that should be spelled out as well.

And as far as interest in your background goes, yes it does have a bearing on how what you say is viewed. Based on what you put it is still a bit foggy if you are actually employed in the Real Estate business..

You know what Paul...I don't care if you think what I have to say is bull or not. That is what the ignore button is for.

If all you can do is take 2 sentences out of the entire response I made to another poster and lambaste me everytime I post then go ahead.

And you want to talk about people skills? Tell me....what other inane things can you think of to justify your obvious disdain for HI's. I tell you what, since you have it all figured out how a home inspector should do their job, what they should report, how they should word it and lastly how they speak to your client why don't you give a class and train them like the little obedient monkeys you want them to be on the "proper" way to do business and in the process be worthy of your referrals. Something tells me that the HI's that you do refer have already been through your bootcamp.

If there's anything I hate it's a shill inspector...but like they say a man has to eat.

Kathy,
For "Seeing both sides of an issue" you seem to have a very closed mind.
I have absolutely no disdain for Home Inspectors and cannot figure out how you came to that conclusion. Home Inspectors are a very important part of the Real Estate Team.(But you would not be aware of that as you are Not part of the Team).

For an Industry Liaison/Mediation Coordinator you seem to jump to many conclusions regarding what I "meant" by my comments. Too bad you continue to be totally mistaken as usual.

I have never in any post to this forum said I want anything other than a professional home inspector. I strongly supported licensing in IL cause there were just way too many Bubba's with a ladder, flashlight and clipboard that were calling themselves Home Inspectors.

I want a professional that is going to go that extra mile for my buyer clients to make sure they get a detailed inspection and some education of the home inspection process before they read that report. If the deal falls through because of problems found in the inspection that cannot be resolved then better sooner than later so I can find my buyers another property.

The rest of your inane ramblings about schil inspectors and my "bootcamp" are a little out there for most professionals in the real estate business. I am talking about professionalism and education of the buyers which is obviously beyond your experience. People skills are part of that buyer education process. One would have thought someone in Mediation would have been able to grasp that principle.

Hey, Kathy.

I haven't read through the rest of this thread, so perhaps this has been covered, but I don't think Paul Oaks is a moderator, at least not in this thread.

I am a moderator, but whether or not I agreed with you, the last thing I would do is ban you if I didn't agree with you.

And, for the record, so far I have agreed with everything you have posted here. I find it refreshing. And I'm still guessing that you are a Realtor. I look forward to finding out sometime in the (near) future.

While the general message you are trying to convey is valid, there's a couple of problems with that message from over here on the home inspector's side.

First, we have no clue what the buyer might consider a problem that needs immediate attention and one that is general maintenance.

In my case, I come from a large, poor family, so I've learned to do just about anything and everything. So nothing in real estate scares me anymore. When I find a problem, I cannot really determine what the Client's experience, skills, knowledge is, or that of his family and friends who might choose to help him, so it's difficult to say that something needs to be done before purchase or is a general maintenance item. Unfortunately, even in states that have licensing and regulations, there are no standards for determining what needs to be done before purchase and what is a general maintenance item.

A couple of examples for you:

I had some buyers re-locating to San Diego from Boston. They found their home, their Realtor, and their home inspector on the Internet. I did the inspection on a 2-year-old home and the only thing "wrong" was that, because of the view of downtown San Diego, Mexico, and the ocean, they had taken all the screens off the window and sold them. When my Clients read my report and saw that there were no screens, they canceled the purchase contract. Both the Realtor and I thought that was strange, but we attributed it to simply buyer's remorse. However, six weeks later I was doing another home inspection for them on the same style house, same age, same neighborhood, same everything. This time it had screen windows and they bought it. I eventually found out that they were re-locating from Boston because San Diego was the farthest they could get from Boston while staying in the lower 48. They had bad memories from Boston. About a year earlier, their 3-year-old son had fallen out of the third story window in their Boston brownstone and died. Everyone blamed it on the lack of screen windows, so when they saw my first report, they simply couldn't deal with it psychologically. Nothing was going to make it better, and the Realtor freaked even though the Realtor offered to buy them $500 worth of screens. So you just never know what the Clients are going to do, what's in their minds, what they're thinking. Personally, since I really only meet and talk with my Clients four times (inspection, 3-day follow-up, 30-day follow-up, and 6-month follow-up), but only three times prior to close of escrow, I don't have a good grasp of anything about them. Realtors, on the other hand, have many, many conversations and meetings with their Clients. And although I haven't met a home inspector yet who wants anyone other than himself interpreting his home inspection reports, Realtors might be the most appropriate people to help determine if something is general maintenance for that specific Client or needs to be corrected before purchase.

I had another Client who was buying a house with significant foundation problems, and on a hillside. She got three repair estimates: $17,000, $26,000 and $57,000. This different Realtor also freaked and tried to get me to sit down and say that all the houses in that neighborhood had significant foundation problems, but that since they were all still standing, they obviously were not serious problems. Well, $17,000 is a serious problem. This was before we found out that my Client didn't care. In fact, nothing in the report (and there was a lot) had any effect on her. Seems she had a father and three brothers who worked in the construction industry, so they were going to do all the work. However, whenever a Realtor asks me to alter a report, that's a Realtor that I don't do business with anymore That's a case of a Realtor trying to run my business rather than enhancing the skills that she needs as a Realtor to be successful in that business. I don't proclaim to be a Realtor (although I was for seven years in Texas), and I don't think Realtors should proclaim to be home inspectors.

Again, those types of things occur too often. Where do we go we don't have any standards concerning when something needs to be done?

The other thing that concerns many of us is our E&O insurance—-for those of us who carry E&O insurance, and there are waaaaaaaaaaay too many home inspectors who don't because it's so expensive. Mine, for example, is very inexpensive ($4,400 annually) because I'm a franchise. I've gotten quotes up to $17,600 annually. Since the home inspection industry is only about 30 years old, there is not a good track record as to what we as home inspectors should or should not do. So some of us consult with our insurance providers and our real estate attorneys as to what to do, how to do it, what to say, and how to say it. My advisors provide me information based on legal statutes and court cases, which sometimes produce case law.

Certainly, if anyone had any questions about my reports, I would hope that they would call me. Althought I'm a franchise, I'm also a rebel. I created my own inspection report, which I call my Interactive Report System (IRS), because I don't think the standard computer reports, and certainly not the standard paper checklist reports, provide enough information/education to home buyers, especially first-time home buyers. With an interactive report on CD, I have 700 MB of data capacity to provide my own information files, PDF files downloaded from the Internet, and even links to web sites on the Internet.

Licensing in and of itself, as well as joining trade associations and business associations, won't create better inspectors. However, if they are required, they do provide a barrier to entry, either real or perceived, which usually do a fairly decent job of keeping those people who are questioning whether they can make it an industry, out of that specific industry.

Even with my IRS, though, I have a reputation with many Realtors for being too nitpicky. I don't know how to resolve that other than to market to the general public rather than Realtors. But marketing to the general public is much, much more expensive than marketing to a defined target market like Realtors, who have the power to refer my company. However, when we rely too much on Realtor referrals, and we get on the Realtor's black list, then we're out of business, regardless of how good or likeable we might be.

I've never heard of a home inspector getting sued because he was too thorough, or he recommended that everything be done/corrected before close of escrow. However, I've heard of many, many lawsuits where the home inspector didn't make a recommendation, or said (either verbally or in writing) that it could be done after escrow. Unfortunately, when they went to have it done after escrow, they discovered other problems that were concealed at the time of the inspection. Therefore, they sued the inspector. And even though our home inspections don't cover latent or concealed defects, we get sued all the time for those. And lawsuits require money to defend, regardless of whether one is right or whether one wins the lawsuit.

I'd love to see some suggestions from Realtors on how we can help you meet your goals while not absorbing all the liability ourselves. After all, put our $399 fee against your 2%-3%-6% commission, and a lawsuit can bankrupt our companies very easily. And while I've never seen a home inspector "kill a deal" (it's usually the seller who killed the deal by doing improper home improvements or not taking care of his house), if a Realtor truly believed that a home inspector killed a deal, that Realtor should be thankful because it simply means that that house was not right for those buyers. Therefore, if they had been convinced that it was right, they probably would have sued everyone, Realtors and home inspectors included, somewhere down the line. Additionally, I think that, in most cases, those buyers still need a house, just not that one.

Kathy578-
The HI that did that completed that particular inspection was found by the buyers, through family. That was about all the research that was done.

No, being wrong is not a crime. But freaking out buyers by claiming the incorrect gauge could cause fires and damage to the stove, well, yeah it could, but it was the correct gauge being used. This was obviously after the fact, but I did call an electrician about it.

And no, the HI did not recommend an electrician be brought in to check it out. He said that the buyers could go to Home Depot, or Lowes, and get the correct wire, and replace it themselves.

Again, there were other issues w/the home. I think I said that this wasn't the only reason why the buyers backed out, but did contribute to it. The home inspector didn't "blow the deal." There were other issues that were not up for negotiated repairs between the two parties. But my point is, if he didn't know what he was talking about, he should have said, 1. Get an electrician in here, or 2. not had electrical stuff covered in his report.

It was certainly not an issue of too detailed report, from what I remember, the report was a single sheet of paper w/bullet point of the issues, and a cassette tape. It was more an ignorance of electrical stuff, and not giving a recommendation on how to fix it, other than DIY.

I'd love to have that link, when you get time. I know bill's been in the works for a while.

I am not a practicing realtor although I took all the courses and passed all the tests in 1989. I wanted the knowledge to aid me in my own personal pursuits of doing a little investing in properties which I really liked doing. I primarily just wanted the knowledge and had no intention of making it a career. I still sit in on classes, try to stay up with the changes but I in no way have ever acted as or profess to be an expert or anything close to it as a realtor.

During that time I was enjoying a career in the United States Air Force which I joined in 1979 at the age of 17 one month out of high school. I was able to go to college coutesy of the G.I. Bill and took many many classes in various things, business, psychology, aviation theory, welding...whatever. If it interested me I took the course. BUT I could never settle on a major and really didn't care because I really just like going to school. While in the military I wore many hats. I started out in logistics management (supply clerk) and volunteered for additional duties that enabled me the luxury of being sent to various training centers around the country. I can efficiently load plan C-5, C-141 and C-130 aircraft as the result of being assigned to the disaster preparedness team on my base. In 1989 I cross-trained into the medical field as a medical evacuation technician. This meant going to the medical training center in texas for many months to learn how to be a medic. After that I had to attend training as a member of a flight crew because I was not a ground medic but an aero-evac medic on C-130's the behind the enemy lines get in get out type thing. I totally and thoroughly loved my career and my experiences and growth as a human being that these experiences afforded me. An unforeseen medical problem took me away from this position as I was no longer fit to fly. I spent the next several years as a Reserve member so I could continue to serve and hopefully reach retirement. During this time I began working in the family business started by my father in 1981. Yes, this business is an inspection company that is also a treament company against those dastardly wood eating things that get into houses. Again I chose to go to classes and learn all about the biz or as much as I could and I currently hold various licenses and certifications in the home inspection, termite inspection, termite control, general pest control, and pesticide application law as it pertains to my state. I have attended conferences in Kentucky and the Purdue University as well as a crap load of other areas over the years. I am active in government affairs and staying on top of proposed legislation as it effects my industy. 3 years short of a 20 year enlistment I could no longer fulfill my obligations as an air force reservist because of medical problems that prevented passing the physical requirements. Instead of letting my world cave in on me as I felt it was I put all my efforts in my current line of work and never looked back.

It wasn't long that experience proved to me just how much the real estate world attempted daily to control my fathers company. I have heard it all people. I have been called everything you can think of. I have been threatened, bribed, cussed out and had the company dragged through the mud when the threats and bribes and cuss words failed to work.

Over the years I have seen great changes. Some good and some bad, and I know these changes will continue to mold what the industry will be like when my son or daughters take over the helm.

At present I also meet with those on different sides of the table and try to discuss their conflicts. I have many times heard the compaints of people in my industry who need someone mouthy? stupid? brave enough to go to the other side and try to work things out before a formal complaint is filed and before things get out of hand. The hud form used for termite inspections recently changed and as a result have put inspectors and agents alike in a tail spin as to how to read it understand it or fill it out. I find myself on the phone for hours explaining the report to agents...why they call me I don't know...many I have never heard of before. All of this extra stuff is just that...extra. It is not a part of my actual position with my company it just sort of happened. Am I an expert in all these things? No. Just devoted.

Do I come to this board with a grudge....absoutley not. What I come here with is TRUTH and an undiplomatic way of expressing it. I apologize for my lack of diplomacy. I was brought up by a Marine and things in our household were pretty much summed up in terms of black and white...cut and dried fashion. No flowery language, no spin...just truth.

You will hopefully realize that I am just as much at the ready to speak out against those in my profession who are out there undermining the professional reputations of their competitors. I am not here to pick on one side.

Anyone who thinks what I have to say is bull I really don't care. I've dealt with a lot of idiots and angels in my time and I am not easily intimidated. If you disagree...fine that is your God given right.

Do I pass your test Paul?

Hi KT,
Thanks for the additional info about that particular situation.

Not trying to take sides it really sounds to me like the guy made an honest mistake. I doubt he meant to distress the buyer or seller. It may have alarmed him to see what he saw as a potential life threatening situation and it spilled over...I don't know I am just guessing. I truly believe however he thought he was right even though he, as it turns out, wasn't. Maybe this situation will cause him to educate himself a bit better in the electrical field so that he isn't in that type of situation again. Let's hope so anyway.

Had it been the other way around where he failed to notice and the wiring was actually wrong...well lets just say he erred on the side of caution?

Home inspectors have no way of knowing what will freak out a buyer. To me this error is not freak-out-worthy but everyone is different. Spiders don't creep me out but my sister goes absolutely NUTS over a spider. To the point she cries even! What a home inspector may alarm one buyer with may be met with a "so what" shrug by the next buyer.

Unfortunately there is no one size fits all "bed side manner". Some people are like those chameleons they can change color in an instant by sizing up who they are in the presense of...others well..they just don't have the knack.

I will find that link for you and post it. It is pages and pages and pages long. After you read it you will see what I mean about complexity...if not impossibility. I honestly feel there should be licensing in our state. I've seen my share of inspectors who jumped in with both feet with not a lick of sense to their name. Until then the only protection a buyer has is to check them out as well as possible before hiring them.

Russel Ray...

BRAVO!!!! I'm speechless!!

That kind of a recommendation by a home inspector indicates one of three things:

1 - A home inspector who had no clue, perhaps a new home inspector coming from a non-real estate-related industry.
2 - A home inspector who did not carry E&O insurance.
3 - A home inspector with stock in Home Depot.

I'm guessing 1 or 2 since he doesn't sound smart enough to have stock.

I would have thought that as well, Russel, had the guy not been both a memeber of ASHI, & NAHI. Can't remember which one, or if it's both, that you've got to perform something like 250 inspections to be a memeber, of but he was an actual memeber, not a trying to be a memeber guy.

Unfortunately, as in any profession, membership in and of itself in any trade association doesn't mean that an individual inspector is (or is not) competent.

I think a more telling method of determine competence in my industry is whether or not one carries insurance, particularly E&O insurance (and there probably are more than half the inspectors nationwide who do not carry it). I believe that an astute home inspector who carries insurance has two things going for him. First, he realizes that he is human and could, quite conceivably make a mistake, and second, he has enough confidence in himself to pay $4,000 a year (or more) for E&O insurance all the while knowing that he will survive in the industry.

I had one Realtor who called me and wanted to know if I was a member of CREIA, our state association. At one time I was, but various reasons caused me not to renew my membership there and to try the National Association of Certified Inspectors instead. When I told her that I was no longer a member of CREIA, she was stunned:
"So you don't carry E&O insurance?"

"Of course I carry E&O insurance. But that doesn't have anything to do with being a member of CREIA."

"Well if you're not a member of CREIA, how do you get E&O insurance?"

She had not a clue. I guess she presumed that CREIA provided inexpensive insurance to its members like NAR, CAR, and SDAR do? I don't know. But I helped educate her, even though she had been a Realtor for many years. And it was that experience on her part that caused me pause on my part because of her lack of knowledge.

There usually is one good way to tell if a home inspector carries E&O insurance, and that's if he has his Client sign an inspection contract prior to the inspection. Every E&O carrier that I'm aware of requires a signed contract, and they teach their policyholders to have it signed prior to the inspection, just in case something happens at the inspection that then precludes the contract from being signed.

Additionally, my contract tells all my insurance providers (E&O, GL, AD&D, life, and workers' comp) that I am authorized to be on someone else's property doing work that could cause death, damage, disability, or destruction, what I call the Four D's. So if I don't have my contract signed prior to the inspection, and something happens to cause one of those Four D's, there's a possibility that my insurance carrier would not pay, probably leaving me bankrupt.

Another good way, of course, is to ask the home inspector for a copy of his E&O declarations page, or his carrier & policy number. Any home inspector who is not willing to provide such vital information would cause me concern.

I don't think house inspection is that difficult of a work. They got their own tools for their work which would definitely make things more easier for them. There is definitely no reason for them to be inaccurate in their findings. Now if they do give inaccurate findings, the reason's probably not negligence but something more sinister. Hmmmm....