Not only do I play the violin, but I also play the piano and I'm a singer. My mother was one of the accompanists for the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, so we started music at the age of 2 (piano) and then, at 6, we were forced to choose one other instrument (I chose violin). Ultimately, though, it's difficult to play the piano or violin around the campfire, so I also took up voice.

I did both. And I continue to do both. I market directly to home buyers through my Internet site and through my Referral Rewards Program for past Clients. My past Client referrals currently are accounting for one-third of my home inspections, and that after only five years in business.

I'm not dependong on Realtors for business, although many home inspectors are. And Realtors are a very nice, well-defined target audience, so marketing to them is a great way to get started in this business. As soon as I did business with that first uppity Realtor, though, I knew I had to go to extremes to get Realtors out of my business. They are not home inspectors, and I'm no longer a Realtor, having moved to a different state; they are two different professions and one should not be controlling the other. Referring and controlling are two different things.


As soon as the public realizes that home inspectors saving them thousands of dollars in repair bills are worth more than paying some Realtors to help them sign a lot of disclosure papers, with the resultant increase in our commissions to, oh, about 3%, I'll be happy to spend what Realtors spend on personal marketing. No problem whatsoever.

My most recent wood-roof Client on a 4,300-SF house got a $50,000 reduction in price for a new, fireproof roof. You think those two Realtors still like me? I just took away $1,500 of her commission money. My Clients called several times telling me that their Realtor's response to the roof was, "It's been there since they built the place and hasn't burned down yet. And it's along the coast." As I told them, "Fires happen everywhere, even along the coast. And since we cannot predict what's going to happen tomorrow, the best way to protect your financial interests in that house is to have a new fireproof roof put on."

Good thing you put that "unless" in there.


Absolutely. There are horror stories in every industry, and there always will be as long as humans, or what humans build, are involved. The current story about the hospital mixup with the dead woman and the woman in a coma is a great example.

Thanks for your ideas on customer service. I've already got it taken care of, though:

Day of inspection - Remind them that they can call me 24/7 about anything that concerns them, to ask any question.

3 days after report is delivered - Follow up with all parties (Client, Client's Agent, seller/seller's Agent) to see if anyone has any questions or if I can help in any way.

14 days after report is delivered - Follow up with all parties (Client, Client's Agent, seller/seller's Agent) to see if anyone has any questions or if I can help in any way.

30 days after report is delivered - Follow up with all parties (Client, Client's Agent, seller/seller's Agent) to see if anyone has any questions or if I can help in any way.

When I know escrow has closed (I check the MLS and the public records each Saturday) - Follow up with all parties (Client, Client's Agent, seller/seller's Agent) to see if anyone has any questions or if I can help in any way.

30-60 days after escrow closes - Follow up with all parties (Client, Client's Agent, seller/seller's Agent) to see if anyone has any questions or if I can help in any way.

30-60 days after escrow closes - Follow up with Client about Referral Rewards Program.

6 months after escrow closes - Follow up with all parties (Client, Client's Agent, seller/seller's Agent) to see if anyone has any questions or if I can help in any way.

One year after escrow closes - Follow up with all parties (Client, Client's Agent, seller/seller's Agent) to see if anyone has any questions or if I can help in any way.

Each annual anniversary after escrow closes - Follow up with all parties (Client, Client's Agent, seller/seller's Agent) to see if anyone has any questions or if I can help in any way.

In all follow-ups, everyone gets gift checks for $20 off any inspection, $30 off inspections of $299 or more, and $40 off inspections of $599 or more. I also offer a professional-to-professional discount to Realtors.

Many Realtors who hate me call me regularly to do inspections for their family and friends, but rarely anymore for their Clients. Hmmmmmmmm. Why is that?

Hey, you don't have to apologize for their decisions since you had nothing to do with it. No one can explain to me why they don't allow Affiliate members to have access to Supra keys. It's just a benefit that is reserved for Realtors and attorneys. Perhaps it has something to do with the exorbitant price of real estate out here. With the average home currently selling for $500,000, and with Realtor commissions being at 5-6%, perhaps the local AR believes that they have to reserve something for Realtors, especially with a great many people now using the Internet to search for properties. Unfortunately, and this is probably indigenous to California, it seems that the only thing Realtors her get to do in today's world is hand the buyer and seller a three-foot stack of disclosure and disclaimer papers to sign. It's a shame, because my time as a Realtor in Houston from 1977-1983 was quite enjoyable. I don't think I would have near the enjoyment as a Realtor here, which, of course, is why I'm not a Realtor here.

Maybe you should have gotten them to tear it down and put up something adobe or stone and that way it would be even harder to burn.

Funny how it is that the buyers looked at a home with a wooden roof and then made an offer on a house with a wooden roof and then you come along and say well there could always be a fire and then ask the sellers for a fire-proof roof. While you were at it you should have requested they make it earthquake proof as well as CA is prone to those. Maybe you should have recommended that they install a SAM system in case something were to crash into their new house or maybe a high wall,moat and window bars in case someone may want to break into the house....

The sellers must have needed to sell if they agreed to that! You wonder why agents dislike you! The wooden roof was hardly a hidden defect in the home and they were aware of it when they made their offer..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russel Ray:
[QB] My most recent wood-roof Client on a 4,300-SF house got a $50,000 reduction in price for a new, fireproof roof. You think those two Realtors still like me? I just took away $1,500 of her commission money. My Clients called several times telling me that their Realtor's response to the roof was, "It's been there since they built the place and hasn't burned down yet. And it's along the coast." As I told them, "Fires happen everywhere, even along the coast. And since we cannot predict what's going to happen tomorrow, the best way to protect your financial interests in that house is to have a new fireproof roof put on."[QUOTE]

Paul,

You seem to be arguing just to argue. Go back and re-read Russel's post. Then read it again. After you fully understand what he wrote, go to the nearest trauma center and visit with the burn patients. Ask them if they are in much pain. Maybe then you might begin to understand the importance of noting safety defects.

The high and mighty buyers agent (the one that should have been looking out for the buyer's interest) was obviously only interested in the sale. Someone must look out for the buyer.

Not everyone knows as much about homes and how safe they are as you or I do. This is precisely why home inspectors are needed. We report on the current condition of the home and it's safety. It has long been known that wood roofs are a fire hazard, especially in arid climates like Southern California. A home buyer cannot make an informed decision if kept in the dark by unscrupulous realtors.

Hey, Paul.

Notwithstanding your sarcasm and condescension, the Southern California fires of October 2003 burned 742,000 acres, destroyed 3,361 homes, and took 26 lives, not to mention all the wildlife and pets.

A significant majority of those homes had wood shake roofs. Slowly, but surely, if humans don't get rid of them in high fire hazard areas like Southern California, Father Fire will do it for us.

Firefighters here during these firestorms rarely try to fight a fire at a home with a wood shake roof. When the roof catches on fire, there's basically no stopping the fire after that. I have some pictures around here of a neighborhood that had about half wood roofs and half tile roofs. All of the homes in that neighborhood that had wood roofs burned to the ground--every single one of them. Not a single home with tile roofs burned.

Even if it's just a single home on fire, if it has a wood shake roof that catches on fire, the firefighters know they have lost the fight and the home.

When Realtors make an older home into a modern home with no problems in order to get that commission paycheck as fast as possible, it's up to home inspectors to protect the financial interests of the buyer. Someone has to do it.

Additionally, there have been many people move into San Diego who were not here during the October 2003 fires, some not even in the United States, so they are not necessarily educated about the dangers of wood roofs in high fire hazard areas such as San Diego County. That's where my educational reports come in.

Seismic upgrades here in California are another point of contention. Realtors, as with wood shake roofs, like to say, "Well it's been standing since 1918 and hasn't fallen down yet!" As if that's supposed to provide comfort to the buyer when the earthquake hits next month and their house collapses on them and kills their your child.

If the seller's had an astute Realtor, that Realtor would have gotten some roof estimates and/or a home inspection and used either or both to make the whole process go more smoothly.

Yeah, I can see where your compassion lies. Next time y'all have a natural disaster anywhere in your neighborhood, I just might be having a margarita on the beach here instead of sending a financial donation to the Red Cross.

Neil,
I read the post correctly...and my point still stands as posted. The buyer looked at a home with a shake roof and then made an offer on a home with a shake roof. They did not originally include in the offer that they expected to seller to install a new fire resistant roof!!

Are your really that much of an idiot that you believe I would have no sympathy for anyone burned in a fire...?

The buyers agent did their job. Show the home with its SHAKE SHINGLE ROOF.....The Buyers liked the house and wrote an offer....guess what it still had the SHAKE SHINGLE ROOF which they appeared to like since they wrote the offer and did not ask that the sellers replace the roof at the time of the offer....

along comes the inspector who says "did you know that a WOODEN roof could be a fire hazzard"!!!!!!
DUHHHH! Were the buyers unaware that CA has a fire problem?

Now Class who out there is not aware that WOOD will burn?????


I am not saying that the roof should not have been replaced if it concerned the buyers...just that they should have been the ones to pay for it since they were aware of its presence when the offer was written.

People like the look of shake despite the fact it is not as fire safe as other materials..people in CA also build houses hanging off the sides of a cliff and then wonder why the home slides down the hill when the heavy rains hit....

Ray,
Do you like your Margaritas Frozen or Iced?? Original or Strawberry????

So did you think these buyers looking for homes in Southern California are too stupid to realize there are fires? Are they shutins with no access to TV?? Did you think they were stupid and did not realize the roof was made of wood??? Shake Shingles is not something you mistake and I bet the MLS sheet mentioned Shake Shingle roof so the buyers were aware of it.

This was NOT a hidden defect....and the sellers point was correct it has not burned since it was installed.

And therein lies the reason for a home inspection.

And therein lies the reason for a home inspection.


Not "could be a fire hazard," but "is a fire hazard." There is a big difference.

And when buyers have dream home visions, and sellers' agents and buyers' agent do nothing but make those dream home visions even dreamier, well, therein lies the reason for a home inspection. We wake everyone up from their dreams, dreams of a dream home for the buyers, dreams of money for the sellers, and dreams of large commission paychecks for the Realtors involved.

In my 33 years in real estate, I have only met a few people who looked at the roof when buying a home, and they were roofing contractors. Everyone else looks at curb appeal, kitchen, and bathrooms, which, perhaps, is why all the Realtor associations and brokerages continue to tell their agents to encourage their sellers/listings to plant plants and paint the kitchens and bathrooms. Hmmmmmm.


And so there's your argument against your own argument. There is lots of concrete shake out there that looks very much like wood. There is even concrete shake out there that looks like an old wood shake roof with curled shingles. So the average buyer in today's world really might not know until a home inspector comes along and tells them.

There's also Cal-Shake, which looks very much like wood, and even deteriorates like wood, which, of course, is what led to the class action lawsuit against Cal-Shake.

And I have no problem discussing houses hanging off the sides of a cliff and the inherent problems associated with them with my Clients.

The whole purpose of my reports is to educate my Clients. Who else is going to? Certainly not the great majority of Realtors with dollar signs in their eyes.

Frozen. I started off many years ago with original, then switched to strawberry. Right now I'm on a fruity cycle, Mango at Baja Betty's, Passionfruit at Islands, and Wild Berry Swirl at On The Border.


I have yet to see an MLS sheet that says the roof is wood. Interestingly, Realtors know not to bring up that fact, and they don't. They usually leave it blank. Realtors seem to have a neat system for putting information in the MLS:

1 - Put the correct information in.
2 - If the correct information is detrimental, put N/K.
3 - If the correct information is really detrimental, leave the entry blank.
4 - If the house is a scraper, put "Needs TLC" or "Great investment property."

Yeah, in 33 years of real estate in seven states, including Illinois, and 7 years as a Realtor in Houston, I know Realtor's little tricks about wording.

And, yes, many average home buyers are stupid about homes. And Realtors don't seem to do anything to educate them, preferring just to have them sign a bunch of disclosure and disclaimer papers. Therein lies the reason for the home inspection, to educate them.

Stupidity and ignorance can be corrected through education, providing the person being educated wants to be educated, which I have found to be the case with home buyers, especially first-time home buyers. They are only too anxious for that education from someone like me.

And as I stated in my earlier post, shake shingles can be something that are mistaken for something else. We have concrete shake, Cal-Shake, and many other materials, such as metal roofs, that look very much like wood shake. As you noted in your earlier post, people like the look of wood shake, and the roof manufacturers know that. I was fooled by a metal shake roof from the ground out in Julian until I got up on the ladder and looked at it. Julian is in one of the more extreme high fire hazard areas of San Diego County.

Defects don't necessarily need to be hidden. In fact, home inspections are, for the most part, visual inspections. We rarely find hidden defects because they are, well, hidden. We disclaim hidden defects (well, those of us who carry E&O insurance do).

Home inspections typically just document the defects that are visible. The reason why we find defects that no one else does is because few other people know what those defects are. Once we find those defects, we have to educate everyone on what it means to have a home with those defects--safety hazard, fire hazard, maintenance concern, whatever. A wood roof in an area like San Diego, and virtually all of Southern California, is a fire hazard.

Yes, the seller was correct. However, as I tell my Clients, the seller, to the best of my knowledge, is not Nostradamus reincarnated, nor God, nor any other person who can see the future. And what risk the sellers might be willing to take might not be the same risk that you are willing to take. But only you can determine that. I'm just trying to provide you with enough information so that you can at least start with a good benchmark, a Ground Zero if you will, and build upon that to determine what risks you are willing to take.

All you have done in your posts is re-emphasize why a home inspection is necessary, hopefully an educational home inspection to help the Clients evaluate risks, rather than just a documentary inspection--the roof leaks.

I'm reminded of a seminar on how report writing language has changed over the years courtesy of aggressive attorneys:

First it was, "The kitchen faucet leaks."

Then it became "The kitchen faucet leaks and needs to be repaired."

Then it became "The kitchen faucet leaks and needs to be repaired by a licensed plumber."

Then it became "The kitchen faucet leaks and needs to be repaired by a licensed plumber before close of escrow."

Next generation: "The kitchen faucet leaks and needs to be repaired by a licensed plumber. Otherwise the dripping might keep you awake at night. Since you will be suffering from sleep deprivation, you might have to consult a counselor or medical specialist, possibly resulting in thousands of dollars of medical expenses or prescriptions. Your sleep deprivation might also cause your job performance to suffer, resulting in you being fired. The dripping, of course, will waste water and increase your utility bills. With your medical bills, your increased utility bills, and your having been fired from your job, you might not be able to pay your mortgage, resulting in foreclosure on your home. When that happens, please call The HomeTeam Inspection Service to inspect your new home under the I-805 bridge with the beautiful view of the San Diego River."

Several years ago, as a buyer, I put an offer on a home with a wood shake roof. I was from out of town and knew nothing about them, but I noticed they were common in the area. I asked my Realtor, she said they were common, no worries. I discovered from the home inspection that the roof had some issues, and I discovered when I applied for homeowners insurance that it was very expensive to insure and carried very high deductibles on wind/hail damage. I negotiated with the seller to reduce the sale price by 1/2 the cost of a roof. I re-roofed the first week after I moved in. Although I saw the roof was wood when I made the offer, I relied on the professionals in the transaction to help me understand what that meant. If the buyer is expected to understand all the issues, then there would be no need for the professionals to be involved. More Realtors need to step up and point out these "obvious" issues before an offer is made.

Good point, MACD.

Here in high fire hazard San Diego, there are some insurance companies that just absolutely refuse to insure wood roofs. So if a Client doesn't get a clue from me, and waits until two days before escrow is supposed to close to try to get insurance on his wood-roof home, only to find out that his company of preference either won't insure it, or charges an obscene premium to insure it, a premium that might actually pay for a new roof, then the mortgage company won't fund the loan, and escrow doesn't close. There go the dollar signs down the drain.

Realtors can only help themselves by becoming educated on specific matters as they relate to their areas so that they won't have to go through a problematic escrow, only to see escrow fail.

I'm here to help, and as a former Realtor in Houston, I like to see everyone involved in real estate transactions play nicely in the same sandbox. Unfortunately, too many Realtors in my neighborhood can't read the educational material I offer them because of the big dollar blinders on their eyes. Remember that real estate here is relatively expensive, as is the cost of living, so even Realtors, especially new ones, try everything they can think of to get the money in the short-term rather than looking at long-term success. Too many people go into real estate thinking that they can make big dollars just by sitting back and having the Clients sign a lot of disclosure/disclaimer papers, as their Realtor did to them when they just bought their house three months ago. Thusly, they are grossly unprepared, in financial terms and realistic terms, for getting started properly in real estate.

Paul,

So...we've stooped to name calling now? Says a lot about you.

I would bet that you have seen the term "contingent on the results of a home inspection" or something similar to that on an offer. Or do you not read anything but the amount on your commission check? Are you saying that it's the home buyer's tough luck if they don't know anything about home safety? You are a perfect example of the type of realtor that home inspectors need to protect their clients from. I would wager that most of your deals that don't go through are killed by you.

I sincerely apologize to the rest of this board for my part in this little flame war. It has gone too far.

Neil,
How can you effectively write reports when you cannot even read properly. I did no name calling I simply asked a question! It is not my fault if you answered yes to that question.

You were the one that made the implied comments about burn victims. I believe that sinks to an even lower level.

You assume to devine way too much. I had always encourage my clients to have home inspections and even encouraged sellers to hire a home inspector to discover any issues up front. I had 100+ closed residential transactions this last year and no transactions that failed to close. I too believe in educating my clients. In this area roofing materials are listed on the MLS sheet and cannot be left blank. This must be different in CA according to Ray.

You want to talk qualifications? How about we do that Neil. I have a construction background and am also a custom home builder so I would be willing to match my zoning and materials knowledge against yours any day of the week. How dare you make assumptions about what kind of an agent I am for my clients! What qualifications do you have as an inspector? Own your own ladder, flashlight, clipboard and pickup?

Better go back and reread exactly what I posted and this time work on your reading comprehension.

PS This time just answer No to the question and everything should be ok.

Ray,

Margaritas are best best when Frozen and very Large!! After all it is 5 o'clock Somewhere!

It sounds like CA agents can get by with way too much. In my area there is a place for roof composition and style and you have to fill it in. Seems your associations are more lax.

I have no problem with you pointing out that the roof could be a fire hazzard. I am more surprised about the lack of negotiating skill of the listing agent that his clients agreed to credit the full cost of the roof I would have recommended 1/2 the cost had they been my clients. Then again I would have had wooden shake shingles on the MLS sheet.

You inspectors kill me when you say you would like to see better relationships with agents but you go around bragging about all the deals that you have killed.

I think there are issues on both sides of the fence and the bragging comments do nothing to strengthen our professional relationships. You always seem to come back with a "Well I once had this inspection that....." can't you just post the information without the good ole boy stories? Since you took that writing class perhaps you can help Neil with his reading comprehension.

Grandé Wild Berry Swirl at On The Border.

They do.
There is.
They are.

It's unfortunate.


It's a buyer's market here right now. Instead of multiple offers at 25% above the listing price, properties are staying on the market for 60, 90, 120, 150, 180 days with no offers at all. I have my eye on a 3/2 condo, 1574 SF, with a golf course/San Diego River/San Diego Bay view. I don't need it, but it started off at $579,000. It's been on the market for 183 days and is down to $404,900. It's dated, is by University of San Diego, and needs serious updating (which is why it is not selling), but would be a perfect property for an investor. Nothing but time-consuming cosmetic issues.


I would have also. I always hate blank entries, but "N/K" can be even worse since it very often indicate sheer laziness on behalf of the listing agent ("N/K" is the default entry in the MLS here). For example:

Type: Condo
HOA: N/K

Huh? Ask the sellers how much they pay in monthly HOA fees!


Can you provide some documentation on that one. I have never, ever read anything by a home inspector anywhere, including me, who said he killed a deal. Realtors are the ones who like to say that a home inspector killed a deal. And that just shows more ignorance and dollar-signs-in-the eyes on the part of the Realtor.

The buyer still needs a home, just not the one that was inspected. So, Realtors, stick with those buyers. They need your help to find the home that is right for them, and it might not necessarily be the one that provides the largest commission to you. But if you stick with them, and help them, you just might get a good referral from them.

If anyone killed a deal, it was the sellers for not taking care of the property (for whatever reason), or the listing Realtor who didn't advise their sellers to get a pre-listing inspection so that they could address any major issues before--repeat, BEFORE--they got their hopes up by opening escrow.

I have seen some homes that committed suicide. If I had been a home with the deferred maintenance exhibited by the sellers, I might have committed suicide as well.

I have never killed a deal

The "good ole boy stories" are what help establish rapport. You seem intelligent enough to know that.

Neil appears quite capable on his own, but I'm sure he appreciates your personal concern about him. You do, don't you, Neil?

Russel,

It's really hard to see but with your help and a pair of binoculars I think I see a glimmer of it.

Paul,

No need to try to impress me with your qualifications. You obviously know how great you are already. I am not your friend and never will be so there is no need to impress me. I will admit that I stepped over the line a little and am sorry for that. I am now back on my side.