Your Not Alone...There are many misconceptions about Search Engine Optimization


We often have, what I refer to as drive-by discussions on search engine optimization on this and many other forums on the net. I wanted to start a factual discussion so questions can be answered with data instead of inuendo I recently started sharing in another very large Realtor group and was quite frankly amazed at some of the advice that was being offered as factual. If implemented unknowingly, such things would all but insure that the sites were never seen or heard from again

If you are anything like the vast majority of website owners you read much of what us seo types say in the internet and say to yourself, why in the world would I need Search Engine Optimization. My web designer built me a great site and submitted it to all the search engines already... sound familiar?

Myth # 1
Ok, so now I got a website made by good designer or template system..., I can just sit and relax, people will find my web site and my business will grow like it has never before. [aka. If you make it, they will come]

This is one of the biggest myths that people have about Internet. Like any other form of business, one also need to understand that web site also needs marketing - without proper marketing it is useless to have a web site - irrespective if the web site is made for getting more business or customer support or both.

For example, you are own hotel. Now the next thing you think about is doing some form of advertising about your hotel to create awareness among your potential clients. If you do not do any form of advertising, then you cannot really expect to make much or any profit from your hotel and it might prove to be a loss as an investment. Same thing applies to websites, when marketed effectively, they can prove very beneficial, but still below things that needs to be taken care for the success of any online of offline business:

Company Image
Proper form of marketing
Quality product / service
Quality Service.
Good customer support.
So having a web site is not enough, you also need to make sure that it is getting the exposure that it deserves - and this can be done only with proper search engine optimization & positioning.

Myth # 2
Doing SEO in-house is cheaper.

Very true, in-house is always cheaper, but is it cost-effective? is it going to produce same results as you can expect from someone who spends months and years studying how search engine works and rank web sites? Learning about how search engines work is not a one time thing, but it is a regular ritual. As search engines change their algorithm (in simple words, formulas for ranking websites) generally every 30-45 days, it is very important to know what they are up to if you wish to be ranked in top 20 or thirty of search results. If you are sure that you or your in-house person can keep up with all the changes in the search engines and is well aware of do & don'ts and how search engine ban sites, then it would be good to make such a decision - however, it is also very true that many companies have gotten banned or bannished to the abis because they or their in-house person did *something* wrong or something that was not as per the terms and condition of search engines without knowing or intending to do so.

You get what you pay for! So unless you are absolutely positive that you or your in-house person know what he/she is doing, you are better of hiring an expert to do search engine optimization for your web site. If you are not ranked in top 30 in search results, you will be loosing more then 98% traffic you can expect from search engines.

Myth # 3
Why do I need some SEO Consultant? There are lots of off-the-shelf programs available in the market. Why can't we just use them and save money.

The myth of submission software is second most popular and can be destructive for website owners.
Lets make few things clear about search engine optimization & positioning:

Website submission is one of the easiest thing anyone can do. As it is as simple at visiting any search engine/ directory and find the "Add Site" link and follow instructions.
Without proper optimization, website submission is useless. As there are billions of web pages our there, unless each and every page of your web site is optimized for the keywords you intend for that page to show in the results for, your chances of getting ranked in top 20/30 of search results are almost the same as you playing golf on moon by 2005.
Like music, drawing & dancing, search engine optimization is a art. There are many performers, but only few know all the steps and how it is done appropriately.
It takes tremendous amount of time & labor in researching effective keywords and phrases. Because doing search engine optimization without proper keyword research is like shooting an arrow in dark. For best possible results - keyword study is must!
Search Engines update their algorithm almost every month, and along with this algorithms continuously which causes the on and off page factors that effect a sites position to change as well. Also, these rules are different for every search engines and it is impossible for any software to do search engine optimization as any SEO Consultant would do. Even more importantly, many of these software programs are in direct violation of the search engines terms of service and will cause your site to be banned or at the very least penalized heaviliy.

Myth # 4 Guaranteed Top Positioning
What is this # 1 Ranking Guarantee I see from companies all over the net and in my email everday.

Number 1 Ranking Guarantee is another name of *Scam*. First, no one can guarantee any specific ranking at major search engines or directories. No SEO Consultant controls the search engine ranking patterns or can actually tell search engines on how to rank web site - so if someone is giving such guarantee, then you can be sure that you need to be looking for someone else, who actually knows how search engine works.



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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

[This message has been edited by Rich@vtws (edited 05-31-2004).]

Well said Rich. Here is a Realty Times article I wrote back in March 2001 which is titled "Ten Ways To Avoid Web Site Placement Hype" - http://realtytimes.com/rtnews/rtapages/20010301_hype.htm

That was 3 years ago and agents are still falling for the same old lines today!


[This message has been edited by doug (edited 05-31-2004).]

So Rich,

I agree with your point however what is your solution to agents on a budget. I would love to have my site designed to my customization and pay someone to keep it where it's supposed to be; however, I don't have 20K in my budget for such a service. I believe agents believe your message on SEO but attempt to do it themselves because of cost. I am speaking out of turn because I am not sure of your fees. I have only been here for a short time, but have learned a lot and want to continue learning.

To be honest, you post was frustrating to me. The perverbial double edge sword. I agree with your point, but believe I can afford your cost

So what an average guy supposed to do? I just did not see the solution in your post.

Ashburn VA Real Estate
Northern Virginia Real Estate

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Michael C. Glass
REMAX Select Properties
Licensed to Practice Real Estate in Virginia
20 Pidgeon Hill Drive, Suite 201
Sterling, VA 20165
703-444-5900 (O)
703-723-2379 (D)
703-444-5921 (F)
http://www.moveupwithmike.com

Tell Me and I'll Forget
Show Me and I'll Remember
Involve Me and I'll Understand

Being able to Interpret and Manipulate Knowledge is Power!

Hi Mike,
Thanks for getting the ball rolling You weren't speaking out of turn by any means....I'm actually very expensive
Just kidding of course.

Yours is a hard question to answer because you ask a very direct question to which a direct answer would be undoubtedly seen by some as an atempt to solicite business for my company or any of the other competent contributors or host here at agentsonline.net I assure everyone this is NOT the case. I'm going to insert a copy of a response to a similar topic we made today and then continue from there.

I'm not speaking about any specific Brand of Realtor website package as I'd much rather spend my summer enjoying myself than preparing to fend off hordes of emails and phone calls threatening lawsuits...LOL

Now onto your question... Most if not all of the prepackaged realtor websites out there are simply not compatible with effective search engine optimization. Although some have, in their quest to be self made webmasters(wink), have figured out ways to get this part or that part of their sites
indexed, the cold hard fact remains.
For example, if you take an old Volkswagen beetle and purchase a Ferrari body kit, nice shiny rims and tires, and slap on a shiny new paint job...what you have is still a beetle...LOL Most of the realtor site packages that have found some placement in the search engines that we've personally looked at,have been discovered to be little more than older technology shined up with
a new paint job, and contain an enormous amount of spammy seo tactics that may, in the short term produce some results, but are questionable at best in terms of their being in compliance with most search engine terms of service.
While some do it yourselfers manage to get good placement for a page or 2, as I said previously, it is indisputable that vast majority of these template type sites never gain any notable placement, generate any measureable return on investment and are complete disappointments to the unknowing purchasers. I also feel it is unconscionable for the sellers of these template type packages, to fail to explain up front, the amount of work and time it would actually take to get any type of useful results and continue to sell this type of site for prifits sake. The technology is readily available to develop something far more effective in terms of a sites ability to be indexable, search engine friendly, generate high quality leads, while still providing a high level of end user control. These companies instead opt for a band aid approach to try to get some sections of their sites in the serps (search engine results pages) and point to it as some miraculous accomplishment that will soon be implemented system wide to all the other thousands of previous purchasers that have been sold a lemon . I'm certain that if people were to step back and consider the fact that we all specialize in doing different things in our professional lives and apply that to their real estate website, they would realize that their time would be much better served by seeking some help.

The vast majority of the hundreds of realtors and brokers I know, think fsbos are nuts for going it alone. What might the difference be if applied to website development/marketing and optimization being undertaken by the realtor?

There are many visitors to this site, that I'm sure have lots of questions about their how to enhance their sites effectiveness so let's keep kicking this can down the street and we will all learn and benefit.

Please understand that I am very aware of the enormous amount of time and effort some of you put into your sites and in no way to mean to disparrage or insult anyone or their sites, but I felt like a little tree shaking was in order in my little corner of the forum was needed to get some of you to open up and get some productive discussions going.

Happy Memorial Day

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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

[This message has been edited by Rich@vtws (edited 05-31-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Rich@vtws (edited 05-31-2004).]

Hi Moveupwithmike,

I too understand your frustration. Rich and I feel the same frustration everytime we read a post or an article that is advising Realtors about how to promote a website - when we know that the information being given is totally wrong.

Imagine our frustration when this misinformation is coming from some of the most well-known names in the Realtor training / advice industry! Realtors automatically believe what they are saying and then pass the same misinformation along to their colleagues. This process has kept the same old bad information circulating since about 1997!

When I was a Realtor, I used to love hearing the misinformation - because I knew that my real estate sites would have no competition whatsoever - and they never did. Being #1 was as easy just analyzing the competitors sites and making a few changes to my own.

Things are not that easy anymore but the same wrong information that would not allow a site to rank well way back then when things were easy - is still being passed around today. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

What is the solution? I think it begins with critical thinking. When someone tells you that "this is the way to do it" - usually checking out their own ranking and traffic stats (using Alexa) will say a lot about what they really know.

Most agents who give this bad info will tell you they rank #1 in Google - what they will not tell you is that they only rank well for non-competitive terms like their own name or company name - not for keywords searchers actually use.

So some critical thinking and a little checking will help you get a better understanding about what course of action you may want to follow.

It is possible to promote your website on a small budget but there is an ongoing learning curve and you need to be prepared to work at it every day. Then, if you do that, you find you know longer have time for real estate - and you end up helping others promote their online presence for a living instead of selling real estate.

That is what happened to me

I think this is a really interesting thread, and would like to know if anyone can tell me if there are any good sites on the web about how to optimize your site to get a good search engine ranking.

I had heard that the ready made template sites didn't perform well in the rankings, so I decided to build my own site....I'm almost finished with it now. However earlier on this evening I was surfing the net, and on the MSN homepage search,I typed in "homes for sale in Pace fl" (my local area). Looking through the sites on the first two pages of results, about 98% were ihouse 2000 sites. Of course they all look very similar, and I'm glad that I decided to go it alone, however they have managed to get to a decent ranking on MSN.

Keep this thread going ...it's great!!

Beachgal

Hi Beachgal,
Thanks for jumping into the fray
There's lots of good sites including this one
Your post reinforces what Doug said in his post about getting palcement for search phrases that generate little if any actual searches by people seeking your services.
A quick check reveals the totals as follows:
How many times is this phrase searched for?
homes for sale in Pace fl
Wordtracker
No data for phrase: = NO Traffic
Overture
No data for phrase: = NO traffic

It would probably take me a day to build a site that would own that phrase but it wouldn't do me much good if I was relying on it to generate leads.

Start with your keyword/phrase research and build from there. Once you determine the terms that will generate actual traffic to your site, then it is time to begin building and optimizing pages to capture that traffic. If your site has been up for a while, your stats and log files will tell you what the locals are using to find you. Anything else is simply putting the cart before the horse if search engine traffic is expected to play a role in the sites success.

I should have started this long ago ... Let's keep the questions coming



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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

[This message has been edited by Rich@vtws (edited 05-31-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Rich@vtws (edited 05-31-2004).]

BTW, what's the url of your website beachgal so we can take a look under the hood

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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich@vtws:
[B]BTW, what's the url of your website beachgal so we can take a look under the hood

I haven't uploaded it yet Rich, I'm still fine tuning the content. Also somebody, who'll remain nameless in my household re-set the brighness on the monitor. So what I'd thought were brown tables tunrd out to be purple....kids ... gotta luv em!

Beachgal

Beachgal,

As Rich mentioned, first you determine what keywords you should be targeting - that is, what keywords are actually used by those searching for real estate in your area. To do that, you would use the keyword research tools at Overture.com and at wordtracker.com

Once you have done that, you begin building your website around the keywords you want to target. Most do this backwards - they build the website and then think, "now what keywords should I target?". Then they put those keywords in their meta keyword tag and think their site is optimized. Guess what - it doesn't work that way

Basic SEO says that for the keywords you intend on targeting on a given page, make sure the keywords are included once in the Title tag, the meta keyword and meta description tags, header tag, text, alt text, and outbound links. Then make sure that other sites link to you using the keywords in their link text.

If your keywords are very competitive you will need to arrange for a number of links from other sites to point to your site. How many? That depends on how competitive your keywords are.

If your keywords are very competitive you will need to analyze your competitor's sites to figure out what the keyword density should be, how much text should be on the page, etc. - and you may have to do this whenever the search engines change their algorithm in order to regain lost rank.

Search engine positioning is an ongoing process - it is not something you do once and forget about it. The majority of the sites that ranked well a year ago are nowhere to be found now - the search engines changed and they did not.

Another thing - be prepared to wait several months for any changes you make to be reflected in search engine results. Search engines are painfully slow nowadays!

Well thanks for the great info. Ok am sitting here hand in the air .... yes I've almost completed my website and not dealt with building in the key words, so Rich it will be a while before you get a look at my site.

I have some question for you guys though. Firstly will I be able to compete with sites that use PPC or paid inclusion?

Must my kewords only relate to each individual page and will the search engines frown on me if I add keyword phrases that are not necessarily found on that page but elsewhere within my site.

How many key words or phrases can you use?

I looked at a website last night that did a free key word search on my site and then produced me some key phrases to paste into my web editor. I noticed that it asked the search engine to check back in one week ... does this work? I haven't pasted it in yet, thought I'd run it by you guys first and get your thoughts on it.

Many Thanks

beachgal

Hi Beachgirl,
Sounds like your tslking about meta tags ?
Optimizing for keywords/phrases is much different than pasting in the meta tags from another site. Don't panick...all is not lost
Lets start with what market you are in and the search terms that you think people will use to find what it is that you will have on your site. Post what you think those terms might be and the url of some of your competitors sites that you hope to see yours showing up better than. That will give me a place to start and give you some more specific advice.
When you post the url of your competitors sites...DON"T use the www before it or you'll be helping them beat you as these forums are indexed in the search engines.


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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

With PPC you pay to be in the advertiser section - and recent studies have concluded that only 20% of searchers actually click on these links. Searchers prefer the "organic" search results and that is where optimizing your site places you - where 80% of searchers look!

Paid inclusion is really designed for dynamically generated sites that are not easy for search engines to spider. A site built with html does not need this although it can speed up inclusion but in the long run is of no benefit. There is not affect on ranking. If your site is not designed to rank well it will not. It will just be included.... on the last page

Inktomi's PFI, the forerunner of the current system used by Yahoo et al, actually caused you to have poorer rankings than if you would have used the free submit in many cases - not better.



No.



[This message has been edited by doug (edited 06-02-2004).]

Speaking of optimizing, I think.. I am seeing more pages of this forum in google or is it just me?

[This message has been edited by 2savvy (edited 06-02-2004).]

It's definitely not just you... I'm seeing the same thing

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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

You guys are the best. I came to this forum tonight to ask a question of how I can research how often certain search phrases are used and lo and behold, in this thread Rich and Doug already had it answered. Keep up the good work guys. Thanks

Thanks Varsitysg...
We're gonna keep it going so stop back often

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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rich@vtws:
[B]Hi Beachgirl,
Sounds like your tslking about meta tags ?
Optimizing for keywords/phrases is much different than pasting in the meta tags from another site. Don't panick...all is not lost
Lets start with what market you are in and the search terms that you think people will use to find what it is that you will have on your site. Post what you think those terms might be and the url of some of your competitors sites that you hope to see yours showing up better than. That will give me a place to start and give you some more specific advice.


Hi Rich,

I've been away for a few days so haven't had the opprotunity to get back to you. I've now uploaded my site. It still needs some work, but I wanted to check what it looked like live, the URL is http://www.GulfCoastHomes4U.com
I guess the phrases that folk would use to search for sites in my area are "pensacola beach real estate" "milton real estate" "pace real estate" "pensacola beach condo" "beach home pensacola" "pensacola beach realtor".
The web sites that appear to be my greatest competition are gibbons-realty.com, mdmoran.com, pensacola-real-estate-homes.com, pensacola-beach-fl-homes.com, pensacolainformation.com and barronsellshomes.com.

Any suggestions would be very welcome.

beachgal

Hi Beachgal,
Give me a fews days to get caught up around here and I'll see what I can come up with as far as suggestions go.

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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

Well now google is indexing their spidered pages about ever 2 days now and it is changing the serps everyday now. Since the google dance is dead then google has started to index everyday just about and the information that the spiders are pulling is counted in the serps almost within a couple of days now.

I think there is also a factor of PR the site has but the higher the PR the faster the information is indexed. With my saite I am seeing pages spidered to and indexed the next almost.

Beachgal if you would like to search in one location goto www.digitalpoint.com they have a keyword tracker on their site plus some other useful tools and you can also see other things you might want to research there.

QUOTE:Once you have done that, you begin building your website around the keywords you want to target. Most do this backwards - they build the website and then think, "now what keywords should I target?". Then they put those keywords in their meta keyword tag and think their site is optimized.

Well since google is the main SE right now from my understanding they dont like at meta description and meta keyword tags anymore ( this was a change in the also to stop spammers)..other search engines do but google doesnt give any weight to them.

If google is the search engine you want to get most of your traffic from..google along with many other factors looks at. 1 Your anchor text ranking. 2.Number of Backlinks
3. Size of the website ( page Content ) 4. Title Tags. 5. PR. 6.Architectural
Structure for the websites pages.7.Keyword Density.8.Alt Tags. These are just some factors but using these will help you get off the ground. Probably the most important of those are Backlinks..Content and Title Tags.Plus your domain url name cant hurt if it targets some of your major keywords

QUOTE:Firstly will I be able to compete with sites that use PPC or paid inclusion?

Yes only 20% of the people that search for a phrase click on a PPC sponsor site.

QUOTE:How many key words or phrases can you use?

The golden rule is dont target anymore then 3 key phrases per page..but my suggestion is only target one key phrases per page. This will help you 1. build more pages and 2. keep you from spamming those phrases.

Beachgal if you are in Pensacola LOL I will help you with a link in my directory. I have a PR 7 real estate website and there is someone in Pensacola I dont care for so I would be happy to give you a good link that will help your PR and venture for rankings and you mentioned the website I dont care for LOL.

I will also take a look at your site and see if there are any suggestions I can offer. I do know of one right now..that is try to get a URL with some of your keywords in the URL . Since you are just in the begining of uploading your site I would suggest to see if a url is available like that.

Best Wishes

Atlanta Real Estate

Ok Beachgal I would suggest get rid of that bravenet counter. They look cheap and bravenet was given a PR ban by G.

2. Try to use keywords to describe your Navigation buttons...IE..instead of view homes..use Pensacola Homes..Instead of Beach Condo's..make that Florida Beach Condo's..you get the idea. This will help you in your all in anchor ranking which helps for ranking.

3. For the title tags you have at the top. I would suggest you use this title tag.for your homepage. Pensacola real estate:Pensacola Homes,Agent,MLS, Listings.

You never want to over 70 characters for your title tag.

I would also cut back on the information you are trying to give on the homepage. You should use the homepage to explain the site as a whole and give consumers a reason to click deeper into your site. If you like take a look at my homepage and see how it is written and try to relay that the best you can for your market. Also try to add to your homepage a paragraph about your home search criteria email form and MLS search page with a couple of html links to those pages within your website.

4.I would also add a home search form to your site.

5. Add some pictures to the righthand border and imput some alt tags in them like..pensacola real estate..pensacola homes..Pensacola Condo's. I can see also on your view homes page with the pics of houses you have there add some alt tags to those..

6. It looks like you might need to re-look at your title tags on all pages. Title tags need to match the pages content and some of yours dont. Like if you change that from View Homes on your nav buttons to Pensacola Homes..I would use the title Tags on that pgae as.. Pensacola Homes: Homes for sale in Pensacola, Florida.

Also instead of targeting Santa Rosa..I would Target Destin..its a better high dollar market from what I remember.

I am sorry if it seems as if I am picking on you..I truly am just trying to help. Anyway its late and I am beat LOL..I will take a look at more of your site later but please take a look at my site and see if you can get any ideas from it.

I hope some of this helps you and if you have any questions use my email address from my website and send me an email. Just click on my anchor text link below and it will take you to my site.

Best Wishes
Atlanta Real Estate

Simple way to gt your site out there. Put your web address on EVERYTHING. Business cards, magnetic sheets that advertise on your car, letter heads, newspaper listings and so on. I've worked with search engines, for a long time. You want to be at the top of a search like yahoo? Be prepared to pay, that's the bottom line. My S/O has a script that can rotate your meta tags and gets pretty good results but search engines should not be your only plan of attack.

Personally I carry around my Palm with digital voice recorder (I'm 28 and fall into the techie generation) I record URLs I want to visit later. I have 4 friends who also do this.

I can also tell you it's not enough to have a web site. UPDATE, there is nothing that drives people away more than a web site that has not been updated. The next thing is people who do not respond to emails in a reasonable amount of time. I do not like playing phone tag and use email more often, when I buy a house it's going to be with an agent that feels comfortable with email and the internet.

I haven't spent a single dime on web site promotion, yet I am usually #1 on every search engine page, and if I'm not in the first slot, I'm in the top five. All I did was submit to the major search engines, and optimize my site for search engines by using the appropriate meta tags. Anyone can do this. All these companies that charge you for their services are a complete rip off.

Yup...sure sounds like were a web designer all right ......8, 9, 10...deap breath Let me correct you on a few of the claims you appear to be making so that we can curb the spread of this non-sense. First things first, there are many so called seo companies that make ridiculous claims and can hardly be considered seriously by anyone.
That said, saying that "all companies that charge for these services are a complete rip off"...as you did in your post is ridiculous and insulting to those in the profession. While our typical real estate client tends to be the company rather than the agent, due mostly to the unwillingness on the part of the agents to invest in a serious way. Our services are directly responsible for millions of dollars in closed transctions every month. You don't have to take my word for it. I'll be happy to provide you with names and numbers.
I do not mean to insult you as you have me but rather to inform you and everyone, so they can have factual data on which to form an opinion. Are all realtors crooks? I think not
Here are some facts:
The only term that your website is number 1 or anything even remotely close to where anyone will ever see is your url. Which I'm relatively sure is not something anyone other than yourself and anyone you've farmed or marketed to will ever be using to contuct a search.
Your site and "appropriate keywords" have attained you the following results.
Grosse Point Real Estate #121
Grosse Pointe realtors #113
Grosse Pointe Homes # 266

ughhhhh..... sorry I have to stop now

I apologize to everyone for the tone of this post. Those of you who have gotten to know me over the last year know it is out of character for me but I guess this one hit a
nerve.



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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

Hey all,

Since last posting in this thread I have been out and brought two books. "SEO for Dummies", great book easy to understand and full of really good tips. It's also written by an english guy with a typical english sens of humor, so for me, it made it even more readable.

Rich I'm not saying that in any way the book could take the place of working with someone in SEO on a regular basis.... but for a dumb blonde like me, it goes a long way to explaining a great many things that I didn't realize ent on with search engines. I had the good sense to recognize that my template site was a waste of money, so went ahead and built my own, however I didn't even think of optimizing it till I'd finished it. Like many others I thought it was just a matter of adding it to the search engines and "Bob's your uncle", I would be number one in no time flat.

The second book that I just brought a few days ago is "html for Dummies" I'm on chapter 2 and let me tell you I wished they did a book called "html for real Dummies" coz right now I just don't get it. However I'll plod on with it, and I know that if I read it enogh times it'll eventually sink in.

I use a html editor to build my site, and although it's really easy to use and very quick, the html is a bit ropey and I'm told that I'm missing a ton of tags. Well not knowing anything about tags, much less that I was missing them, I invested in this book so that I could at least have some idea of what nice clean html should look like, and where and how to add the missing tags.

My site is a work in progress as is my website building learning curve, but I love doing it and I find the subject fascinating if not a little frustrating at times.



[This message has been edited by beachgal (edited 07-02-2004).]

Hi Beachgal,
I think it's great that people take an interest and build their own sites as well as learn about seo. Hell you see all the free advice I give to anyone who asks

The only point I have is that for a full time agent to spend the amount of time learning and keeping up with things takes alot of time away from doing the things that the agent pays the bills with like listing and selling homes...LOL

I for one don't do my own tune ups or mow my lawn or any number of other things that I certainly can do well I choose not to because I can work a few hours at my chosen profession and pay for many of those things which would take me much longer to do for myself timewise. Would I really have saved money by doing it...No It would have cost me money and then my wife will be yelling at me telling me the car doesn't run right and I missed 3 blades of grass with the weedwacker

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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

Lynn,
I couldn't disagree with you more. I don't know for which search terms you're #1 in and I don't know what your market is like and how many agents there have websites but in any decent sized market there are hundreds of agents competing for high SE rankings. Not only are these agents competing with one another, but they are also competing against giant national companies such as Homegain and ServiceMagic who have huge advantages over individual agents when it comes to rankings. A good SEO person can provide an advantage over the other agents and help to level the playing field against the Homegains and Servicemagics of the world.
On this very board are some very talented SEO people who provide excellent and FREE advice to all who ask and for you to disrespect them here on this forum is disgraceful.
By the way, exactly which search phrases are you ranked #1 in?

[This message has been edited by varsitysg (edited 07-02-2004).]

Well looks like a good thread to chime in on. First I would like to say that most agents who have very good websites that are pulling in a good number of leads dont have the time to optimize theirs websites themselves. BUTTTTTTTT!!!!

I would say that it is hard to find good seo's out there that are interested in more then just making a dollar off an agents lack of seo knowledge.

I have recently had problems with my seo. I was ranked # 4 for my main key phrase and had a lot of number 1s for most of my industry phrases..that is a long story so on to a point I think I am trying to make ..LOL

First you have to check out any person you are going to hire for seo..dont just take other peoples word for it..check out any websites they have done..ask how they were able to get them to that position...SOME TACTICS used will get you penalized by google and other search engines.

SOMETHING YOU SHOULD NEVER DO.

DONT BUY LINKS!!!!

I had to find out the hard way. It is no fun going up into the top 5 for your main keyword and then being drop from the results because your seo had you buy links and it gets you penalized.

I have dealt with a good number of so called seo's and I can tell you most of them are full of BS. They dont tell you the dangers of certain practices that they are going to use on your website and we as realtors dont have time to learn the do's and dont's of the search engines tos.

It is sad but the real estate industry is preyed on by a lot of seo's that are in it just to make a BUCK and are not concern with your business. I will say I know Rich and Doug and neither of them seem to be this type of person....BUT as a STRONG WARNING

STAY AWAY FROM AN SEO CALLED SEO GUY...YOU WILL SHELL OUT THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS AND END UP WITH NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT.

With the real estate industry ( Realtors ) being the largest association in the world as a group we need to fight the fact that so many of us who are interested in the internet for business weed out these companies and Seo's that have no real interest in our sucess and make sure we as a group spead the word on those that are truly trying to help us and those that want to do nothing more then just make a buck.

Mmmm, that must be why I'm #1 in google if you search for "grosse pointe realty" or under my name. I have similar rankings in other search engines.

lynn, having high rankings is not as important is having actual searches. How many people actually search for grosse pointe realty a day? I can tell you that when I did a search for the information it came up less than once a day.......it didn't even show up on the radar. "grosse pointe" is seached daily on the internet 111 times. Of those 111 times most of the searchers will not go past the first three pages. When doing a search on "grosse point" I noticed that the first Realtor shown is Sue at grosse-pointe-real-estate.com . Getting a fourth page listing isn't bad, but of the 111 people searching for grosse point, how many of them are lookign for Realtors and how many of them actually go to Sue's site?

Further more, of the Grosse Point websites, you will have 255,000 competitors. This gives you a keyword efficiancy ranking of .048..which is not very good at all. basically the amount of searches compared to the amount of available websites is not very good. The TOP 16 Michigan Real Estate keywords to focus on would be:

1 plymouth michigan real estate associations 34 5 231.200
2 northeast michigan prime real estate 46 10 211.600
3 michigan waterfront real estate 197 302 128.507
4 michigan creative real estate 57 28 116.036
5 clarkston michigan real estate associations 41 19 88.474
6 oscoda michigan real estate 134 209 85.914
7 clarkston michigan real estate agent 33 15 72.600
8 clarkston michigan real estate investment 17 5 57.800
9 birmingham michigan real estate appraisers 22 10 48.400
10 michigan real estate listing 168 867 32.554
11 east lansing michigan real estate 147 680 31.778
12 tawas michigan real estate 149 752 29.523
13 real estate for sale michigan 140 715 27.413
14 michigan real estate company 139 710 27.213
15 alpena michigan real estate 131 887 19.347
16 michigan real estate investor 44 109 17.761

it is hard to place it correctly on here but the firs number is the number of Daily Searches, the second is the number of Competitors, and the third is the keyword Eficiancy Ranking. (even the 16th place one is 17.761, much better then just grosse point)

I am not th amaster here, i am trying to implimant these in my website as well and haveen't scratched the surface by far but, just ONE of my recent hits from Google showed that i was at the bottowm of Page Two for the search term "sierra county mls sierraville" which I am not even a Realtor.


Just a thought and I just wanted to point out that being number one for a phrase isn;t very important if people aren't actually searching for the term.

By the way, people search "willtygart" 26 times a day on the net....makes a guy like me a little paranoid.

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www.HonestMortgage.net

[This message has been edited by WillTygart (edited 07-06-2004).]

How can I check various search phrase results like you have above? I'm a total novice and have been tinkering around with trying to improve the page rank and SEO on my wife's site. I understand it will never be able to compete with sites professionally optimized but I enjoy learning a bit about it.

Thanks for your help.

Don Hill

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Don Hill
Jack-of-all-trades
http://www.jenhillhomes.com

You know I DO have a lil secret and I don't tell anyone but you RE agents are kinda growing on me so I will spill the beans. www.webceo.com has a great product. I got the PRO version, but they have a free version that will set you up for life, and shouldn't be free at all. I do not know if the Keyword analyzer is in the free version but it probably is. Go download the free version and then you too can sound smart like me......even though I am just a mortgage guy. Let me know how ya like it.

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www.HonestMortgage.net

Hi Will,

I not sure how secret it is but the free version is sorta ok for the price

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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

you use the free version and you really don't need a SEO guy.........in my humblist of opinions.

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www.HonestMortgage.net

Alright Will...
Now you forced me to reply in detail

How in the world is a stats program going to get you to the top of the serps

It may give someone some useful information if they know what to do with it but there's alot more to getting to the top of the serps than anything you can do with the onpage optimization alone. Please share with us youir successes for specific highly competitive search terms and search engines that you attribute to WEBceo and how it got you to those positions. I checked most of your targeted keywords in google and yahoo and didn't see your site anywhere?
Don;t take anything I say here personally Will, I know your intentions are completely above board but when someone makes a blanket statement about a topic I know a little something about, I have a tendancy to look for validation

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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

It is odd that you mentioned THOSE particular search engines. YOU yourself do very well on MSN, All the web, Alta Vista, Hot Bot, Info Space, and Lycos......but when is comes to Yahoo and Google you aren't in the first 100 listings. Either you have a seperate web domain that you optimized specifically and seperatley for goodle and yahoo......or ya haven;t figured it out yourself. I am not the full time SEO guy.....but this product is free, and for about 150 bucks a month or more a person would be charged for what this thing does for free. It is not a submitter..it HAS one, but it also looks and analyzes pages and points out words and phrases that aren't helping your site. I honestly think you haven;t tried this product yet or you wouldn;t have made the comments that you make. I have a million and one things I would love to do with my site but I am working my normal business so much that I don;t get a chance. For those Realtors that are looking to do some SEO themselves on their site....you can't tell me that this product can't give them much more then what a bunch of SEO companies do themselves. It is fun, easy, and I apologize if I jumped onto your turf. I myself haven't scratched the surface of what this thing can do.....but over time I think I will do fine. I track my stats and sometimes it confuses me. I will be number one for a city in Arizona and the word real estate, and be first when someone types in a construction term. I have to redo most of the site and get it optimized, but haven't had the chance. I will say this......I wouldn't rub it into a guys face that HIS site isn't on page one for all of his keywords and dismiss what he says.......KNOWING HOW to do something and DOING IT are two different things......and I have not had the time to do it. Good Luck with Google and Yahoo though!

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www.HonestMortgage.net

Hi Will,
Sorry you interpreted my comments as an attack I've been a little stressed lately. Those little emoticons convey the spirit of the post I intended

Now back to business To correct one point you made, our company site is #2 out of 3.6 million for real estate websites in the inktomi engines and doing very well in google for other keyword phrases we are targeting. I'd be happy to give you hundreds of examples of client sites holding multiple first page positions if you like We tend to use our our site as well as some other company sites we have to test different optimizattion startegies long before we implement them on any of our client sites.
The members here are some of the most net savvy you'll find anywhere which is why you didn't get a response to your request for link exchanges with your site. When you made the statement in the link exchange forum that your site isn't designed to be pretty but rather for search engines, I took a quick peek. Take a look at this page www.honestmortgage.net/PA.htm and tell me if that is what you mean by optimized for search engines. Once again, please regard this post for what it is..honest open debate and not a personal attack. One of the things that sets this forum apart from most is the fact that the moderators in all sections try to see that the information is kept as forthright and reliable as possible.........I just re-read my responses to this post and I must say that the tone was a bit more poiniant than usual and for this I apologize I have a close friend and father of 3 hanging on by a thread in the hospital at the moment and extend my apology to everyone on the board o)

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Rich
Real Estate Websites
Search Engine Optimization

This is a lively discussion and absolutley not anything I would consider as hostile. I have not made it to pennsylvania yet, as I am using the earlier states as my test modules. Some of the pages that i HAVE optimised are:
http://www.honestmortgage.net/AZ.htm
http://www.honestmortgage.net/california_realtors.htm
http://www.honestmortgage.net/adjustable_minneapolis_mortgage_rates.htm
http://www.honestmortgage.net/Arizona_Realtors.htm

These have some variations to them and there are some other pages I have as well. The PA page is an old thing I did last year that actually gets several hits when people are searching for a city and a keyword that i have.

You do have inktomi down for sure, but, and I did this to fart around a little, I did not see your site in the top 400 of any of the 55 search engines for the word search engine optimization...........SEO is a hard niche to crack on the search engines but I would imagine for the SEO this is the phrase that you would want to show off your talents against your competition. In all seriousness, good luck with your fiend and I don;t take ANYTHING anyone says in a bad way and I respect/appreciate your knowledge on here.

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www.HonestMortgage.net