I closed on a property as a dual agent.

The buyer is complaining that she doesn't remember signing on the broker fee for $300.00 my company charges/takes.

I didn't know I needed to get signature from the buyer for a broker fee.

Do I need one?

You don't if the seller paid it. If she is paying it she does need to sign for it, otherwise pull out the checkbook, this one is on you.

Did that Fee show up on the HUD-1 ?

Did the Buyers sign the HUD-1 ?

Are these the same Buyers who finally agreed to pay the Seller's Rent ?

They're probably just a mite ticked that you didn't discuss the Broker Fee with them before they saw it levied at the Closing . . . . did you give them a "Head's Up" ?

Their Attorney saw the HUD-1 BEFORE the Closing . . . . so s/he had the opportunity to object if the imposition of it was felt to be inappropriate? Right ?

Yes, it did show up on the HUD-1.

Yes, he did sign it: he questioned on the signing at the closing on the broker fee and I explained to him that my company charges and I do not get a cent out of it.

He is now, after two days of signing, complaining about it.

Yes, it was the same buyer.

I have been having trouble understanding this buyer. Very tough to deal with...and law-is-above-all type person...sometimes erratic...

Are these the brokerage transaction fees that most of the big guys charge? (They have a lot of different names, but are basically ADDITIONAL income for the brokerage)

If so, they need to be disclosed upon signing a buyer broker agreement or an offer to purchase in most states. There are specific RESPA rules about fees charged on the HUD-1. Maybe sit down with your broker or manager on this. And be prepared to write a check to the buyer for $300. RESPA violations can cost you a lot more than that.

I agree w/PA. It should be somewhere other than the HUD-1, the BBA and the purchase agreement, and the listing agreement for sellers. Just throwing a charge on the HUD statement at close isn't really notifying a customer/client of the charge.

That's why I asked the question:

That question wasn't answered.

I find that it's uncomfortable to talk about some issues in Real Estate; and usually . . . . the sooner I broach them, the better, and I get back into my own "comfort zone". Explaining the existence of the Broker's Fee and the need for it, is an item I'd get out of the way early on.

I suspect this $300.00 Broker Fee is an issue that never got discussed until Closing Day.

Exactly Vermont. If a fee is somewhere else, or TWO somewhere else's like the BBA and purchase agreement, we, as agents/Realtors, are much more likely to cover the fee before hand with clients or customers.

Did the buyer request a copy of the HUD-1 at least 24 hours prior to closing or was the closing the first time they saw it? There is only a RESPA violation here if the buyer requested a copy of the HUD-1 and did not receive it. If they did not request one, and they did see it and sign it at closing and the fee was disclosed, then no violation has occured.

I tend to share your suspicion and there appears to be a pattern emerging. It appears that the agent made promises on his own to both parties-- the "rent", the "bloom clean", and repairs not to "break the deal". More than likely, the buyer is demanding what the buyer was promised, and the agent is disembling.

On the $300 "fee", from what the agent says, this was a surprise to the buyer in that the buyer apparently asked the agent, "What is this for and do you get this money?" The only thing the agent is quick to say is that the agent didn't get "one cent" from this fee. That's a curious response.

I respectfully disagree with this, based on comments from HUD's own attys. They could look at a charge for an admin fee as a RESPA violation if there was no contract involved.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/21/business/la-fi-harney21-2010mar21

Yes, you were right in that the broker fee was never discussed before with the buyer. It has been that way for over 4 years with the company and I've never been challenged before. It was a routin item that my company charges. I didn't know I even needed a consent fron the buyer to charge this broker fee until now.

Yes, I agree also what you said, "pattern emerging...the rent, bloom clean, the repairs..not to break the deal."
My goal was "not to break the deal." I did not want to break deal:

The sellers found a lucrative business to submit a contract for with the proceeds after they sell the house and they needed to act fast.

The buyer loved the house after searching for one for many many months and he never looked back. He came and was many many times staring the house from the parking lot. The owners sometimes got scared to see the buyer kept coming and staring the house. He always wanted to show it to his friends and relatioves.

No, I disagree on what you defined me as dissembling. You are drunk now or when you read my previous posts.

I acted according to my own words.

The rent:

I promised to give the sellers the rent they wanted. I gave them all.

I got promised to get the rent at the closing many many times from the buyer, other power-of attorney, the one who's actually doing the loan. Do not say the phone conversations do not count.

The buyer-this POA I had contract with-didn't agree or disagree. He simply replied, to my email that he had to pay the rent, with the question when the walk-thru will be.

Bloom-clean: It was bloom cleaned. No doubt contrary to what he believes it not. He mentioned about professionally cleaning before and I said not possible. He once more asked, I said no way. He knew it wouldn't be professionally cleaned.

Repairs: What repairs? The sellers fixed most items including very trivial items like door knob adjusting. The buyer got most items fixed in the inspection items and he got SATISFIED!

BTW the inspector came back to me saying that he will fix the sliding door locks because they are easy to fix.

The buyer missed the third closing by one day. The other POA was sitting on the money and not wiring it.

Dude. I really hope that "rent" was on the HUD-1 statement.

Not knowing, or pleading ignorance to RESPA laws are no excuse. You are a licensed agent, and presumably, so is your broker. Take a CE class. Or five.

Make that ten or twenty. The more this "agent" says, the more revealing it gets. Horrifying.

Horrifying?

Charging a broker fee that my company does is horrifying?
What my company didn't teach me about broker fees is horrifying?

I might be ignorant, but your accusation that "the more I say the more it gets" is baseless. In addition, where did your feeling of "horrifying" come from?

Your reply has been hostle from the start and you are ignored.

Here's the thing, as it appears from your posts. This is not a DA situation. You did not have both parties best interests in mind, as is required to have a true DA relationship, fiduciary duties, confidentiality, loyalty, etc. Merely signing a paper does not create Agency. It sounds like the buyer was a customer, and one you don't care about.

Promising something, to one party, but not having it in writing, like a signed agreement, by *both* parties, in order to close a deal, is a possible inducement.

Not having all monies on the HUD-1 is, well, illegal. As is not having charges signed off well beforehand, both are RESPA violations. There are class-action lawsuits going on right now over admin fees, as well as one at the Supreme Court level. See my prior link specifically about admin fees, as signing the HUD-1 is not sufficient for this fee.

None of this is legal advice, just, advice. If you don't know RE laws, can't or won't represent your clients, it's possible you should either get some education, or not practice RE. Otherwise, it makes the entire industry look bad.

Be specific. Just illustrating definition of agency doesn't give you more credibility than me.

The buyer was a client and he still think he is as he is asking for a hard copy of HOA docs now 5 days after the closing when I emailed the resale package to him one month ago per the contract.



Again it is another example of a defination replying of yours.
I thought we were talking about DA on the buyer. Stick to the subject. The addendum had been sent to the buyer with the rent while I was explaining to the sellers on the rent. In the end, the sellers got what they want, the rent. You got to talk/promise first before putting it in writing. You don't do it vice versa.



Everything is on the HUD-1. The buyer having paid the rent to me after the close in cash was A SARCASM! Sorry if you believed it. Remember what I said about the buyer. He's living with a lawyer!

Even my broker says the buyer does not need to sign off the broker fee specifically before hand but some kind of buyer agreement for which I believed DA was enough. Maybe I was wrong. That's why I decided to give $300 back to the buyer.
I need to dig thru this charge and challenge my broker about it.

That is a good point. It is not a violation of RESPA to charge fee if it is properly disclosed. Based upon this ruling if the fee is contained in the language of the contract between the buyer and seller or the buyer's brokerage agreement and is also listed on the HUD-1 then it is legal. If it only shows up on the HUD-1 and nowhere else, then it could violate RESPA if no additional services were provided and specified to account for the fee.

The broker I work for is a flat fee broker and the fee is $300.00 per transaction. Some agents pass this fee along to the buyer or seller but it is disclosed in the listing or buyer's brokerage agreement and it is also listed on the HUD-1. I do not pass the fee along to the buyer or seller. I pay it to the broker out of my commission. It has helped me secure a few listings from other agents who were going to charge the fee to the seller.

I agree.

The "fee" just can't show up on the HUD absent being a part of the contract or listing agreement, although I've heard that it's happened. It must be disclosed. Of course when buyers come to the closing table or however settlement is done in a jurisdiction, and that fee is on the HUD, most feel they can't do anything about it. But others have crossed it out and refused to pay it.

In this particular ongoing saga (and we have to go back to the poster's original post about this buyer refusing to pay "rent" and/or a "penalty" when there was nothing in the contract nor any signed addendum to make him do that) we can see a pattern of extra-contractual/non-contractual proceedings involving a real estate transaction. Could very well been that the buyer knew nothing about this broker "fee".

My experience with "admin fees".
In 2004 we sold our personal home. In the offer we agreed to pay buyers closing cost and pre-paids up to $5,500. Day before closing, I look over the HUD one and see where the title company had me paying a $500 admin fee to the selling agent and $5,000 toward buyers closing cost and prepaids. I called the title co. and told them that we had no agreement to pay the $500 admin fee and to please put it in the buyers collumn and the buyer can decide if they have an agreement with their agent or not.
To me, this was handled unethically, because the additional compensation to the buyers agent was never disclosed to us until I reviewed the HUD 1.
Due to circumstances, temporary moving, storing, lack of time etc. I was not in a position to pursue any ethics violation charges.
Is that an ethics violation where you are and how would you have handled it?

typical under-handed, deceptive dealings. Pro's broker is an unethical jackass. And Pro, you are jointly responsible for any failure or violation of the law that may have occurred. this is an affirmative duty, you cannot claim ignorance.

as a licensed agent, you cannot necessarily believe or rely on what your broker tells you. you need qualified legal advice from an attorney.

My broker is now saying that I needed a buyer's agreement with the broker fee before charging and it is a new law anyway.

will contest to paying $300 for broker fee myself.
Why do I have to pay for it when I was paying office fees separately?

And I won't charge broker fees to my clients anyway at all even with a buyer's agreement. I decided to take it as my loss if my challenges to my broker on the broker fees cannot be won.

Anyway I sent email to the buyer and agreed to paying $300 to the buyer.

If your broker is attempting to charge the buyer a separate fee as a company policy, the broker is responsible for providing you with a separate agreement to present to the buyer...when the purchase offer is completed. the buyer is under no obligation to agree to this fee.

I applaud your buyer for challenging this deceptive practice by your broker. broker should reimburse you or the buyer for the fee charged via escrow.

If the brokerage cannot collect the fee...too bad. broker cannot demand the payment of this fee from the client. also, broker cannot demand the payment of this fee by the agent, absent a prior agreement to that effect (office fees).

this broker is a little piece of [censored].

Was this $300 "fee" actually a transaction fee that you have to pay your company per transaction?

Like you get an 80% split but you have to pay your company $300 per transaction (sale), too?

This is weird, and can depend on who is reading the contract, maybe? It can be considered a "closing cost" but I don't think that most people would lump it in with traditional things that go into said costs, as it is really a contract between a listing or buyer broker and the seller/buyer, not title or mortgage monies. So ... I don't think it should be applied like that, unless the contract itself says XYZ is to pay the fee. Make sense?

So, I needed to come back to this, cuz, it's bothering me.

This isn't a new ruling on the admin fee thing. HUD issued their statement in 2010. Most of the class actions suits were settled in 2011 with individual companies, however there are a couple suits still around at State levels, and one at the Supreme Court level, NAR just file an Amicus Brief this Jan.

There is a diference between a Buyer Broker Agreement, and a Disclosed Dual Agency Agreement. There is a diference between an "admin fee" or "additional commish fee" which is usually charged to a buyer or seller, and a "monthly" or "per transaction fee" which is usually charged to an agent. And sometimes, even a few days after closing, your clients, are going to need things. Deal with it. If you don't know the basics of what you are practicing, like; agency laws and RE contract laws for your state, you need to learn them.

It seems that the agent was operating for a long time outside the oversight of the broker, the agent having a thin grasp on standards of practice, procedure, contracts, communications, etc. To the extent where when counseled here, the agent disputed and defended his/her wrongness.

I'll say it again, it's one thing to tell a consumer that he/she is contractually bound to perform by the contents of an email without an addendum to a contract; and tell a client that they are contractually bound by the contents of a telephone conversation. It's another to tell this to experienced licensees. But when an agent has become used to being able to tell consumers ANYTHING and having the consumer believe and go along with it, an agent begins to believe that what he's doing is correct.

To the extent that, outside and post-close, the agent accepted cash from the buyer--- "...my hands were shaking". The agent didn't realize that in telling us this he/she made another terrible revelation. When the agent got the predictably negative feedback on this, we're told it was just a joke. But that's doubtful.

We've been told that this buyer is "above all law", but what this agent has come to believe is "law" is his/her own perceptions.

With respect to "bloom clean" and "professionally cleaned", it's pretty clear that the agent made promises to the buyer about how the condition would be post-close. It's unlikely the contract addressed that the property would be clean. The buyer was promised something by the agent and was disappointed and upset.

With respect to the "final straw" (so far), the broker fee, we don't know if this fee was the agent's transaction fee being passed on to the buyer, or a broker fee the agent is required to collect from the buyer by the brokerage. If the latter, then if the agent is unable to collect the brokerage fee, the agent has to pay it. If it was an attempt to pass the agent sales transaction fee on and the buyer refused to pay, the agent has to pay the broker. But, it appears that the buyer DID pay the fee, with the broker now telling the agent that the fee (whatever it ws for) needed to be disclosed to the buyer; it was not, and IMO it is the broker who needs to refund the fee to the buyer and charge it back to the agent.

With respect to these broker admin or additonal commission fees, there are two points: 1) Presumably they need to be for "additional services", and many brokers have no problem justifying them. Like it or not. 2) Regarding disclosure-- I believe that would be according to the particular state. There is ample evidence that many times the fees are not disclosed to the buyer. Many brokerages only charge these fees to the seller and they are a part of the listing agreement. But many brokerages charge them to both parties. In this instance, I'm fairly certain that there was guidance/procedure in place from the broker on this and it went unobserved by this agent. The agent admitted that in four years, s/he never had a complaint or a problem collecting this fee. It is only on this transaction that it became a problem-- and the agent is blaming the broker inasmuch as the buyer was blamed for attempting to curb this agent.

As you and others have observed prior, remedial education is needed here.

You don't believe what I said about cash offer being a joke. You conveniently chose to not believe it. It's because the description, "My hands were shaken," was so vivid that it cannot be a joke. Right?

You think that this buyer who wants everything, is a perfectionist, and whose wife is a lawyer, would give me cash "after the closing," "under the table," Right? You need some reading/thinking to do.

I said it was a joke, then you got to believe it. Otherwise, all/any of the posts I made here would not be trustful, would they?

About broom clean, the buyer kept asking for a professional clean. I asked for it to the sellers and the sellers said no. So I said no. The buyer kept asking for it whenever there was a chance. I once looked at him pityfully and he avoided my look.
Obviously he wanted me to do the professional cleaning.
He got $15K out of my commission and still wanted to squeeze every possible money he can. And yes, I said to give him $300 broker fee and he's extremely happy about it now.

Hey guys, believe it when I said I didn't promise it nor did I get a signed walk-thru for professionally cleaning.

Maybe it was you guys who have been doing what you believed happened to me, cash being offered under the table, buyer inducement, etc. That's why you guys jumped to those kind of conclusions without believing what I said.

I thought I was doing my best for the sellers and the buyer on this transaction to make them both happy which could have been an impossible mission. And I was right in the end. They both trusted me as I did both.

I was trying to persudate the sellers to give the buyer an extention while the extension addendum was on the buyer's table because I believed it is the best thing to happen to both the parties.

If I followed you guys advice, no deal would have been made.

The sellers would have declared default and the buyer backed out because you guys wanted the extension addendum badly and without it you wouldn't persue the deal; you wouldn't try to persuade the sellers and promise to give them the rent because of no written addendum handy yet (inducement?).

The sellers are now in the process of buying a business they've long dreamed of, a $600k Arlington deli, lucrative business.
Their was this biz offer at the same time this house was being delayed.

The buyer bought his dream house. REmember what I said about the buyer. He just had to get this house. He was/is extremely excited.


Think about it.

Those of us who have taken time to reply, siting rulings, etc, are doing so to answer your questions. We have pointed out possible or potential missteps that you may have made, based on the things you have said in prior postings. The majority of people responding have been active on these boards, active as licensees, and have very good reputations in RE. It is extremely brazen, and in truth, a possible ethics violation (if you really want to go there) to claim anyone has acted oustide the law without proof.

You don't believe what I said about cash offer being a joke. You conveniently chose to not believe it. It's because the description, "My hands were shaken," was so vivid that it cannot be a joke. Right?

No, it wasn't a joke. It may NOT have happened, but you told us it did so we'd possibly believe you made everything right (and we were wrong) and you could live your "happy life".

You also told us that you had not been able to get the extension addendum with the "rent" provision signed. That was the premise of your first post. "What can I do?" When we told you you were SOL and had made another mistake, you later said, something similar to "of course I got the addendum signed-- I told you the buyer lives with a lawyer". However, later you again say that you didn't get the addendum signed, and herein you admit to having no addendum again. Another joke? Which version?

You think that this buyer who wants everything, is a perfectionist, and whose wife is a lawyer, would give me cash "after the closing," "under the table," Right? You need some reading/thinking to do.

First the buyer's SISTER was a lawyer on the "east 'cost'", now is WIFE is a lawyer.

I said it was a joke, then you got to believe it. Otherwise, all/any of the posts I made here would not be trustful, would they?

I think you've answered that by yourself.

About broom clean, the buyer kept asking for a professional clean. I asked for it to the sellers and the sellers said no. So I said no. The buyer kept asking for it whenever there was a chance. I once looked at him pityfully and he avoided my look.

YOU'RE the one who asked us whether a property should be broom clean or professionally cleaned when the property was found by the buyer to have "some leftovers" and wasn't all "shiny"-- you're the one who asked us what it should be. That indicates something was promised, but you weren't sure exactly what you'd promised. And you looked at the buyer pitifully and he looked away? That's priceless.

Maybe it was you guys who have been doing what you believed happened to me, cash being offered under the table, buyer inducement, etc. That's why you guys jumped to those kind of conclusions without believing what I said.

Now this one is really bad; but you clearly don't know any better. How dare you make such an accusation? This type of tactic doesn't fly here. You got caught by us, tried to back-pedal, got caught again, and now you say that because we knew what you'd done, we do it, too. Scurrilous.

I thought I was doing my best for the sellers and the buyer on this transaction to make them both happy which could have been an impossible mission. And I was right in the end. They both trusted me as I did both.

I was trying to persudate the sellers to give the buyer an extention while the extension addendum was on the buyer's table because I believed it is the best thing to happen to both the parties.

If I followed you guys advice, no deal would have been made.

The sellers would have declared default and the buyer backed out because you guys wanted the extension addendum badly and without it you wouldn't persue the deal; you wouldn't try to persuade the sellers and promise to give them the rent because of no written addendum handy yet (inducement?).

You still don't get it, do you? You made promises on behalf of the parties that you COULD NOT MAKE. YOU became the deal. And you say that if you had done it "our" way, there would have been no deal. Entirely possible. But what else are you willing to do to get a deal? Where does it stop? I'll tell you where it stops. It stops when your broker gets involved, it stops when the DRE gets involved. You came here with a developing mess that you didn't want your broker to know about it. You were repeatedly told to talk to your broker. You were repeatedly asked what your broker thought. You clearly were not under the broker's supervision/oversight. You wanted to fix the mess before it got to your broker's attention. Your BROKER could have answered all your questions, not us. But you didn't want your broker to know what all had gone on. Your broker's hair would have fallen out, and you know it.

The ONLY time your broker probably became aware of this deal was over the issue of the brokerage fee. Go ahead, tell us your broker approved of everything you did, said it was all perfect. Tell us that you didn't believe your broker and you came here to make sure. 'Cause that's what's probably coming next.

Ditto!

As much as you have, I have been acting according to the law.
And that's the point I was trying to make.

Yes, it was a joke when I said it was a joke.
You cannot let go of the first message, "shaking hand," which sounds so real. You just believed what you chose to believe for the sake of argument.

WOW!! AMAZING! What are you talking about?
You are confused with the first addendum and the second one with the rent provision! Go back and read it again if you so care.

His wife is a laywer as well. Do you have any problem with that?
If you are an inventor, ask his wife because she excersizes in patent.

No, I 've not answered that by myself.

Again, your constant assumption makes you misunderstand what I write and do you even realize it?

Some leftovers and all not shiny and my question on them indicate something was promised?

You dig too much into what I said to find something and that is making you look not credible on your motive. Why can't you believe what I said just as it is?

I am speechless.

Tactic? Fly? I got caught by you? Back pedal? Got caught again? Scurrilous?

Do you even know who are being "scurrilous" right here?

Now, this is the place of the exchange of ideas and that's what I first thought. But your hypocrisy to "catch" something on me while trying to look more credible/lawful just makes me sick.

This is hell of an accusation. If you know you have some trouble reading and understanding, ask for help.

I made promises on behalf of the parties that I FINALLY MADE!

The sellers got the rent (thru me in the end) and sold the house.
The buyer got the extensions at the loan delay and bought the house.

Cleaning and HOA docs are due to the buyer's (the perfectionist's) greed:

Well the house was not that shiny as he wished but that's him.
Professional cleaning wasn't promised or written for EVER.

HOA docs were sent long ago thru email per the contract but the buyer wanted a hard copy 5 days after the closing. LOL!

You would never deal with this kind of buyer.

Hew....This post reminds me of some cascading effects of a husband who starts out with a trivial thought that her wife might be having an affair and ends with killing her.

Listen. My broker knows it. I posted here for the exchange of ideas and further education/input from other fellow agents.
I didn't come here to hide from my broker. You are dead wrong.

Do you post here because you want to hide something from someone? You got to throw away your bad bad habit of assuming and guessing.

God bless you.

Not even worth ....