Hi everyone.
I have been reading quite a bit for awhile now but this is my first post. I hope someone can give some insight.

To make my story short, I live in a subdivision built in the mid 90's. My home was built and purchased new in 1995. A short sale recently came on the market that is the same model home as ours so, of course I was curious. I noticed quite a noticeable sunken dip in the tile roof. It kept gnawing at me for some reason and I took a look at mine which has the beginnings of, but not quite as pronounced as the roof of the short sale. I then began driving around the neighborhood and every single build of my model has this sunken dip, though in various stages, in the exact same location on each house.

I have since gone into the attic space and find that indeed the roof is slowly collapsing in. It's about a 6' x 6' area in the cathedral ceiling. Since doing this, I have intensely looked at all of the homes (4 different models were built)and each one as problems of sinking, though in different locations for each model but every model in the same locations. Always where a cathedral ceiling is, it seems. In doing some background research on the builder, I found that the first phase they did here had composition roofs. The next 2 phases, of which I am in, are tile roofs. I spoke with another builder, I ran into one day, and he seems to think they may have used the same truss design as the comp roofs which wouldn't hold the weight of tile.

I was in the process of deciding to either sell or rent my home when this became apparent. I am right now in the process of bracing my roof.

There is zero recourse because of California law unless, of course, we could prove Willful Misconduct or Fraud. The builder was purchased by another firm in/about 2004. I am going to the City next week to request my initial plans. I'd like to see how this all came about.

I am livid with the builder, the City and the State whereas an entire subdivision is affected by this and the State protects everybody involved except the homeowner. A roof shouldn't be collapsing after 15-20 years. This could be quite a safety issue in a few years not to mention the loss of value in this subdivision if people are afraid to purchase.

My questions are:

Do I bring this to the attention of the City Planning Dept.? Do I just fix mine? Do I somehow let other homeowners know or should I leave that to the City to deal with. Am I making more out of this than I need to?

I know I have to disclose this if I do end up selling but I am at a loss on how far this can of worms is opened.

I'm not clear as to whether some of the asphalt composition roofs are also collapsing; not just the heavier tile ?

It may be that the Builder obtained approval from the Architect before adding the additional weight of the tile. If not, then he may have carried some form of "Completed Operations" Insurance Coverage which could assist you and your neighbors. California probably requires licensed builders to carry some form of coverage like this.

Perhaps you'd have a basis for a Class Action Suit against the original Architect et al, and be able to accomplish as a group, something which could be impossible to do individually ?

I guess that design wouldn't work so well here, where in addition to holding themselves up, our roofs also have to intermittently bear the weight of several tons of snow and ice. Roofs that can't even structurally support themselves would certainly pose a bit of a problem !

My questions are:

[quote Do I bring this to the attention of the City Planning Dept.? Do I just fix mine? Do I somehow let other homeowners know or should I leave that to the City to deal with. Am I making more out of this than I need to?

I know I have to disclose this if I do end up selling but I am at a loss on how far this can of worms is opened.
[/quote]

I believe you should go to the city and state you problem. It could be that the builder got one over on the planning department by using the same truss design and the city person that approved the plans did not know enough about roof design to realize you needed extra bracing and or heavier trusses for the tile roofing material. If it was just one or two cases it could have been that a brace that was supposed to be added at the job site was left out, but it sounds like that is not the case. Be sure and document all calls and visits to whomever you talk too. If it is a case where they screwed up and are responsible it will help later down the line.I agree with Vermont that no matter who you contact about this that you will carry a bigger stick the more of you with the problem do stick together as a group. Someone like an engineer or architect had to approve and stamp those plans as to meeting certain building codes.

Good Luck

Thank you for the responses.

The comp roofs are not having a problem. Just the tile roofs. I know insurance coverage is required but Calif Civil Law has a statute of limitations/repose of 10 years from the date of completion, which puts us all of us over. Any recourse, from any person or entity, after the 10 years is nada, zero, out-of-luck sucker unless we can legally prove willful misconduct or fraud. I think it would be hard trying to find a lawyer to take this case unless I can really prove something is amiss. I'm going to dig up as much as I can to find out what is going on.

The short sale house initially sold then fell through. As to why, I don't know. I did go to the City to find out about permits to brace the roof and they said I was the second person to inquire, but I don't know if that person came from this subdivision.

I think I am going to get a structural engineer to diagnose then go to the City to find out if they know what's going on here and if they don't, then let them know they have a big mess coming down the pike. I'll get the plans from the city to find out what trusses were called for. (Should I have the plans available for the structural engineer to read as I don't have that expertise?) Maybe give the City a week or two to inspect themselves if they don't know what is happening and then contact the other homeowners, maybe get a big meeting together and take it from there. They might surprise me, but I doubt it, with a solution. This is just plain wrong and we are talking a few hundred homes. I don't think many, if any are aware. How does this sound?

My problem stems from potential buyers and the reputation of this builder and subdivision once this becomes known. Would I be creating a depressing situation whereas I am bringing property values down with a flick of a switch? As a buyer, would you take a walk after learning of this problem?

Thanks

If in fact there is "hundreds" of homes involved in this I would gather all the information you can on your home and try to find an attorney to speak to first. Normally I try not to recommend going to attorneys but in some cases they are a necessary evil. It may well be worth 300 or 400 dollars of your money to talk to an attorney first. They may tell you because of the time frame there is not much to do. It would seem that somewhere down the line someone had to sign off on all those plans. It may be a case where it was so busy when these homes were being built that things got pushed through the city without proper review. Yes you are potentially opening up a huge can of worms if "hundreds" of houses have the same problem as yours. I would think that if buyers and real estate agents knew that this type of problem existed in an entire neighborhood it could hurt sales in the neighborhood.

Just my opinion not legal advice

Rather than look at it as potentially hurting sales how about looking at it as potentially saving homeowners a lot of heartache and expense if they can find out about this potential problem now and get it fixed rather than finding out the hard way, as in, when their roof collapses.

I wouldn't worry about it from a sales point of view but think about it as a human being helping fellow human beings point of view.

Furthermore once the problem is fixed it shouldn't hinder the sale of the individual home - it will need to be disclosed as a repair of course...keep all documentation regarding it...

DRSRK:
Thank you. I don't know if hiring an attorney is the way to go. Way too costly and it would be in the courts forever to reach any kind of settlement, if even won. The Civil Code protects all but the homeowners. I just would like to know how and why this has happened. I'd also like to have enough information to present to the City so they'd at least look into it.

Perky Realtor:
Yes, I agree with you, the other homeowners need to be informed. I just am unsure if I am the one to notify them. I think it really should be the City but I don't know if they'd follow through. I don't want to get in a scenario of "shoot the messenger" from either the homeowners or the City. I'm pretty sure it will, hopefully temporary, bring down value if not just for the fear factor. I don't know if I'd trust a builder regarding other areas of the house if I know they didn't construct the roof correctly. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture from all sides. Maybe I'm over-thinking the situation but I've never encountered anything like before.

I don't think the roofs will collapse right away. It's been 16 years on our home. We braced our roof today. Put in a large beam spanning the cathedral ceiling and had to jack up one end of the roof by 3" and our home was just dipping ever so slightly to the naked eye. Not a huge drop but over time unbraced roofs will keep sinking in.

here's a discussion of statutes of limitations for construction defects:


http://www.constructionweblinks.com/Resources/Industry_Reports__Newsletters/Jun_28_2004/tolled.html


the time limitation (could) extend beyond 10 years under certain circumstrances.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out. Please keep us posted and remember you have strength in numbers.

Good luck

I will update as I go along.

Went around my immediate neighborhood and stopped and spoke to about 8 homeowners. No one had any idea. Even a couple that lives across the street from the short sale. One couple purchased their home about 8 months ago and had a roof and home inspection. Never was caught. Maybe it's not pronounced enough but I can easily see where there is a sag line in each roof from the street. Another person said that a repair had been made on their roof, but didn't elaborate on what type of repair. I photographed a bunch of roofs but I don't see an upload link on this site.

Took a moment to run down to the planning dept to inform them of my concerns and also to see if I could get building plans. He told me they probably do not have them as anything built in the 90's has most likely been tossed. Do they just throw away older plans? Also inquired as to truss wood size used for a tile roof. He pulled out a stack of plans. Didn't really get an answer. I went in last week to inquire about a permit, I was told I could put one or two braces in and not need one. This gentlemen said I probably should have gotten one. I told him how we had fixed it, but I guess we'll see where it goes. I'll sit tight for a bit.

By the way, I don't see any sag in the original model home. Fluke?

Oh. One homeowner asked me if I was a Realtor. Funny.

It sounds to me like you got a city employee that was not interested in putting any time towards your problem. Be persistent and always get peoples name you have talked too and document dates and times. As far as the plans I would be real surprised if there was not at least an electronic copy of the plans somewhere. Are they still building your model somewhere in the city? If so maybe you can get a copy of those plans and compare to how your house is built. Was your house repaired by a licensed contractor? What did the neighbors have to say about the problem?

The City inspector I spoke with seemed to be interested and said he likes digging into problems like this. I voiced my concerns about all of the identical models sagging in the exact same location; how we fixed ours and gave him the address of the short sale to check out. He seemed to ask a lot of questions. Could be like you said and he doesn't want to do anything but I felt he didn't want to let his concerns known to me. Don't know how busy they are. He seemed fine with us fixing ours only to say that we probably should have gotten a permit. Can that now come back to haunt us?

We put the brace in ourselves. My husband has worked in construction most of his life. We probably should have gone through a GC but my husband felt we could do it. It wasn't actually a big job other than dealing with the heat in the attic from the hot weather. That's why I initially inquired as to permits but the first city inspector I saw told me I wouldn't require one. I guess if the City does investigate the entire subdivision they will probably make us tear it out and hire a GC. I just felt that once the plywood on the roof starts warping it will be a huge job to fix. Not just bracing it up but replacing a big section of the roof. The short sale house is sagging too deeply to warrant a brace IMO.

No, not building this model any longer or since this subdivision was completed. The builder got bought out soon after this subdivision was done and then they have since merged with another builder. I would bet the county or city would have plans. Just can't fathom them throwing plans out.

Most of the neighbors I visited thanked me but I don't know if they really got it. As I said earlier, a couple was a little miffed that their inspectors on the purchase didn't catch it. A few seemed, I want to say, unconcerned. They may need time for it to register. A few thought I had ulterior motives.

Thanks for the update. The reason I asked the question about the licensed contractor is if at some point you sell you will need to disclose the problem and most people would feel better if you had documentation from a licensed contractor showing how the repairs were made. Interesting to your neighbors reactions. It may take time for it to sink into their minds and get the wheels in motion.

Yep, I know. I would have liked a GC but didn't win the debate. I would still like to have a structural engineer take a lot at the roof and the brace. I am hoping that would help a potential buyer feel confident.

The city called today and told me they could find every other model except our house plans. I got the feeling that the subject is now dropped. I don't think they are going to press the issue.