We are really struggling with whether or not we should walk away from this deal...sorry for the long post!!!

Background-we saw this house 5 months ago, went back twice after initial showing. 2 months back I had asked for a Seller's Disclosure (voluntary in NJ, but they obliged). No red flags, no mention of anything relating to underground storage tanks etc. We were finally able to make our offer this past week & are in Attorney Review now.

Last week, for completely unrelated reasons, we pulled all the permits on the property from the town to see about a renovation in question. (the house is 5 bedrooms because of a renovation, but only 3 bedroom septic verified) In doing so, we found out there was an underground oil tank that was filled by the current owners. They failed to disclose this on the Sellers Disclosure.

Then, we find out today when we pressed about this undisclosed tank & why it wasn't disclosed (they claim they didn't know that was what the form was asking them to disclose) that they also had an above ground tank that leaked, had to be remediated & received a NFA letter from the EPA. This was not disclosed at all on the Sellers Disclosure either.

We are feeling very uneasy about entering into a deal with these people, what else they aren't disclosing etc. It is a dual agent situation & the agents are telling us we are overreacting & being too paranoid etc. Our family, friends & attorney are all in agreement that they would walk away now & find another house.

We asked them to remove the tank & they came back with a response that they would pay up to $1000 but the rest was our responsibility. It is unheard of for a Buyer to handle anything relating to an oil tank clean up in NJ AND we don't even know if any soil needs to be removed due to contamination. That felt like an even worse slap in the face to me after they tried to get away with not telling us about it to begin with.

As a buyer, WWYD? As a Realtor, what would you tell a buyer you were representing if you weren't also representing the seller in this situation? If it were your son or daughter would you tell them to walk? Am I really overreacting over this & could someone truly not understand a Sellers Disclosure & the questions it is asking?

Why would you want to buy a house where you might have to;

1. remove an illegal renovation or upgrade the septic system
2. clean up 2 possible oil spills at an unknown expense

With all of the houses for sale there is no reason to buy this one.

If your agent tries to talk you into buying this house get a new agent.

The agents & seller are claiming that the town will not deny a CO for the bedrooms/septic. We are asking them to prove they can get their CO before we even sign the contract & put out money for a full septic & home inspection. BUT-our concern regarding the septic is if they get their CO now & then we go to sell the house down the road, can we get stuck not being able to attain a CO because the town changes the rules or a new town inspector is really strict.

We were considering continuing with the deal if they remediate the underground tank with a proper removal. The EPA already gave them a NFA letter on the above ground leak.

There are a bunch of houses for sale but this was a really good location etc. But I think we are seeing why it was potentially such a good deal.

The agents think that because they did a proper abandonment by law & a proper EPA clean up of the leak there is no reason for us to be concerned. Are they right? To me-it seems suspect to not disclose AND if we are uneasy about it all, we shouldn't be made to feel like we are the crazy ones. I know they want to close this deal that has been in their sites for months but I am trying to understand why they wouldn't be able to see things our way at all. Are they really that cut throat that it doesn't make sense to them???

You wrote that the home is a bargain and that they did a proper clean up of the leak. The rest of your concerns are born of your imagination, suspicions, fear and doubt.

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You wrote that the home is a bargain and that they did a proper clean up of the leak. The rest of your concerns are born of your imagination, suspicions, fear and doubt.

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Imagination? Really? Wow. A Seller doesn't disclose 2 major items & we don't actually have any proof they did the proper clean up yet. In fact, abandoning an oil tank & filling it with rocks or sand is not necessarily still considered the proper clean up nowadays. I guess if everything was so proper, why did they deceive on the Seller's Disclosure? Doubt, yes. Imagination, I don't think so.

It's not so much of a bargain that we can risk there were other deceptions. Home Inspectors only get a snapshot of a home when they perform their inspections & to go into it with 2 deceptions from the start sucks as a Buyer.

Apparently today they were able to get their CO from the town despite it being a 5 bedroom with only a 3 bedroom septic. Is this commonplace? Can we ever be on the hook to upgrade the septic or remove the closets of the bedrooms when we sell?

Well since you put it that way, I think you should walk away. After all, how can you possibly enjoy a home when you're worried about the closets and what you're gonna do with them in 5-10-20 years?

I think you'd be happier in a home where the closets aren't an issue.

Such productive feedback...and with a healthy dose of snark too.

Big toe asked a question worth answering (worthy of your serious consideration)....whutcha buying this one for? Go find another deal without these issues?

It can be said that a great piece of advice to give to any buyer of real estate is, "You must be willing to walk away at any point. If you are not then you are emotionaly attached and likely using clouded reasoning."

Also don't overlook what Artiste was saying.

Very similar to the message board, we have some people telling us to walk away & let go of the emotional attachment to this house. But other people are telling us we just need to move fwd, get over being deceived, do our inspections, get all the paperwork from them on what they did with the leaking tank & make them take care of the current tank. I keep weighing what's in my head etc & here is what I keep coming back to...

The pros to this house are:
Location - We are moving back to my hometown which is a very rural area in Northern NJ, so there aren't really that many properties in our price range & tax range-we have been looking for 5 months while our property has been for sale & have seen over 40 houses. We loved this one. The rest in this price range either had taxes we couldn't cut OR ended up selling before we could buy.

Price - It is a very nice amount of house, with a full acre & the price & taxes were at a comfortable price point. Not cheap by any means. Not a fixer upper or anything like that. Just priced appropriately for the market & reasonable taxes for the area. Most everything else in the area & school districts we wanted were colonials out of our price range.

The Cons:
Only 3 bedroom septic verified-we don't need a 5 bedroom septic. There are only 4 of us. BUT we just worry we could have problems if we want to sell down the road. I don't fully understand how COHs work & if it is kind of up to the individual inspector to consider septic size & bedrooms before giving a CO or if the town could change the policy down the road. Like I said, I don't need a 5 bedroom septic, but I don't want to have to upgrade to one down the road if I need to sell.

The omission of key items on the Seller's Disclosure-It makes me wonder about their honesty in general on the rest of the disclosure & just feels "wrong". Of course we will do all inspections but we got burned in our current home by something missed in the inspection & wasn't disclosed. So bad history there & clouding whether this is an emotional reaction or a fact based reaction.

I don't know if I came to the wrong type of forum...but I guess I was looking for any takes on it I could.

DUAL agency - why did you AGREE to DUAL agency? If you've been mugged and beaten - would you use the defendant's attorney too? It's pretty akin to dual agency.

If the underground tank complies with current law - possibly no problem...until the law changes.

Never advertise the house as 5 bedrooms on 3 bedroom septic.

Get the headaches above board and taken care of before you sign (better yet, before you ratify).


Talk to the neighbors....

I'm not an attorney and this is only my opinion. It is not a legal opinion.

GOOD LUCK.

My point (about the closets et al) is that you're finding a lot of reasons to fret about this purchase and your future and I really sincerely don't think you should buy it.

You will know when you find your home. You'll enter the front door and you'll know it's your home. Trust that instinct. Doubt means "no" and you've got too many doubts about this home.

Do you have an option to not agree to dual agency? Our agent had been working with us for many months & showed us dozens of houses before this one was even listed. I didn't realize I should have called a new agent to show us this one? Is that what people really do even if they have been working with someone for a long time? I guess I feel stupid.

We kind of felt like it was "the one" when we 1st saw it back in Feb. We went back a 2nd time during the day to see it & then a 3rd to show my Mother. We loved it until we found out about the Sellers Disclosure being "inaccurate".

We are asking they remove the abandoned tank, test the soil & get the NFA letter from the EPA prior to closing. And we are asking for all the documentation relating to the above ground clean up with that EPA NFA letter. If the soil tests clean, & all documents are in order, I am thinking that's my "sign" it's ok????

We are going to get the most thorough inspection we can on the septic too...if it's a well maintained & in good order septic, I think I could live with that. If we ever had to sell, I would never market it as a 5 bedroom. That was a big mistake.

^ that sounds like a good plan

Once my seller forgot to disclose that the tenant smashed their car into the side post of the building. He didn't mean to hide it - he was just so excited to have a legitimate offer that he forgot.

Now that the seller has a CO for the addition the taxing authority has been notified of the addition and they will add in the additional space to the tax assessment and the property taxes will go up.

When you try to sell in the future you might have to replace the septic system for the future buyer.

If the addition was done without permits was the work down up to code or will you be fixing this too?

Call the regulatory authority who handles the CO and talk to them about the addition and septic. They might show up one day and make you replace the system or make you bring the house up to code.

Call a septic company and find out how much a 5 bedroom septic costs plus the cost of removing the old septic.

Call the health department to see what is required to install a 5 bedroom septic. Around here there is a huge difference between a 3 bed septic and a 5 bed septic with one of the differences being a 5 bed septic requires a 100% repair area set aside for future septic repairs.

Here is what I know from the Building Dept.

Their building burned down in 89 & they lost all records. They only have records from 89 to current. There is no permit for this addition BUT the property recd a CO in 1993 when the current owners purchased it. Current owners claim they did not do the addition, it was there when they bought it. They have all other permits on file-2 bathrooms remodels, deck etc.


In trying to be cooperative & friendly, I called the owner (my agent insisted I call him & make nice) to get the dimensions on the pool. They had verbally committed to replace the liner but are now saying they didn't say that & it's no longer leaking. I wanted to get a quote in the event I end up needing to replace it. He wasn't cool on the phone, he was kind of combative about everything going on & pissed off at us. Meanwhile, we are the only people who have even looked at their house in 5 months. I would think he would want to at least pretend to be friendly & such. I didn't attack him or act like that when discussing his glaring omissions on the Seller's Disclosure.

I am burnt on this & ready to walk. I just hate the fact that someone out in the world will hate me now.

Walk. It's not worth it. A better house exists for you.

You mentioned that you were late getting offers in on other houses that you liked... so ask your Realtor to carry Purchase Agreements with her so you can write and sign offers inside the house for sale right there and then.

we didn't get those offers in because our house hadn't sold yet...

we are giving them one last chance to work with us. i also did confirm that our home owners would charge us a yearly surcharge just for a tank being underground. and other insurance companies are no longer insuring at all unless they are removed. i explained that to them & if is still pissing & moaning about it, we're done.

I wanted to post an update-I spoke to the town inspector. He is stating that they do not consider the home we are buying to be a 5 bedroom since the septic is 3 bedroom. He said they do not get into comparing bedrooms vs septic certification, do not care about it at all & that his own home is a 3 bedroom that is only 2 bedroom certified. He also said that for tax purposes, the town still only considers it a 3 bedroom since that's what the septic is. He basically calls the other 2 rooms bonus rooms & states that technically, the only impact to us is that we shouldn't ever market it as a 5 bedroom, since it's only a 3 bedroom home. (that was this seller's agent big mistake-but it was priced more as a 3 bedroom at least)

He said that this has been the way the town does business for a long time & he wouldn't see any reason why that would ever change.

The seller has agreed to remove the tank & test the soil underneath next week. As soon as that comes back, we will do a septic inspection & home inspection.

Incidentally, I called my home owners insurance company & they don't insure if there is a tank remaining underground. They don't care if it was abandoned properly or not. And the other leading insurer I checked with charges a $100/year surcharge if there is a tank or partial tank underground.

In Virginia, buyer and seller must AGREE on dual agency. If they can't agree, buyer can get an agent from a different company. How commission is split would be beyond me - that would be for a remediation board. When both agents are under the same broker, there certainly is a greater "push" to get the home sold by both agents.

If the seller isn't working with you on getting a happy ending, you probably should walk away.

In Virginia, if it ain't in writing and it ain't in the contract - it is not enforceable, not matter how many oral promises a seller makes.

Another thing we have in VA that must be agreed to is representation by designated representitives. That is a fancy way of saying list agent and sales agent are working under the same broker. Since the broker owns the listings, technically it is a type of dual representation and must be agreed to (in writing) by all parties.

Did I get that right VAbroker?

Here's my nickles worth.
I sell foreclosures. We had a 20 gallon oil spill on a cement basement floor. Another agent noticed it just after it happened and called the fire department. The FD called the DEP/EPA. We're at 30,000 and counting. It seems they found some other oil contamination in the soil and now a good chunk of the yard needs to be trucked out. Once the DEP is involved they determine what's to be done and will lien the property for cleanup costs.
If my daughters/granddaughters were involved in this, my advice would be to walk away. I would also request from the broker owner of the RE company for reimbursement of any expenses associated with this purchase. The next call would be to the NJ consumer protection bureau, and/or the licensing commission. Both are free investigations. I find it hard to believe that an owner "forgot" they had the "Love Canal" (okay an exageration) under their bedroom window.
Just my nickles worth.

I am a realtor in FL. With your dual agency, you do not have someone wholey on your side. I would never accept a realtor's "opinion" about what you should do (re "get over it" comment) as they are not inspectors and not professionals on the subject of underground tanks.

Always get inspections by any AND ALL inspectors (third party, not part of the transaction, you pay them inspectors) you feel you need to make your final decision. It's flattering you're asking people on a message board, but the real people to ask are the professionals in your area who can do something about it. (In Florida we don't have many things underground, so I don't even know what the industry is for inspecting such.)

Disbelieving the sellers who have already lied (at least by omitting the facts) is a good thing. But loss of that trust doesn't mean you should drop the house purchase; it means you should be MORE DILIGENT in your inspections.

I hope this helps.

"I am burnt on this & ready to walk. I just hate the fact that someone out in the world will hate me now."


Okay, it's time to walk already. listen to yourself.

Jersey agents, do they usually remove the tank in NJ? Where I am on LI, the tank is just filled and abandoned. I've never had anyone remove it.

If the EPA comes in to do the cleanup, the owner gets the bill. You don't know how much the bill will be in advance. I had a spill from a mobile home fuel tank above ground many years ago now. First I knew about it was I had a call from the EPA stating they had dug a hole about 8x8x8 and removed all the soil. I think the bill was 8K. I've seen a couple other instances of oil spill cleanups...one bankrupted the property owner. Having gone through that once I would never buy a home where I knew there had been an oil spill. My two cents.

New Jersey has some specific remediation requirements, make sure they all have been followed and documented.

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/srp/unregulatedtanks/