Really just mentioning this, so you can tighten up you risk management system.

Hopefully, you know about the lead Renovation, Repair and Painting (RRP) Rule.

New purchaser sued seller agent and their brokerage firm for not letting the new homeowner know about illegal work (painting) done back in Dec 2010 that was done by a non-certified firm.

Purchaser acknowledges receiving and signing Lead Disclosure. Purchaser did not decide to get lead test. However, purchaser said they would have gotten lead test done if they would have known about the non-certified contractor.

A child has 9 mcg/dl, which isn't much at all, but newer research is showing this level can cause loss of IQ points, behavior changes and many more things.

....

Another one going against agent and landlord. On this one, the child is severely mentally handicap after moving in an apartment with lead dust. I know the guy who is an expert witness on this one. 30 million.

Going to become more and more common.

CYA

I'd say you gotta be careful because some of these guys are just out for the money.

I don't understand when my own children were young and we lived in old, old places that I'm sure had lead-based paint but they survived. I guess my kids were intelligent enough to not eat paint chips. A parent must bear some responsibility for letting their child CONTINUE to eat paint chips.

Heck, as kids, we played with small, swallowable objects, sharp metal toys and we, too, survived.

Maybe kids are just "protected" too much and can't think on their own anymore.

Sorry I'm not too sympathic - I was a responsible parent (and a young one at that).

I wouldn't doubt this parent was FEEDING their kids "chips" for the money.

While true, kids can get lead poisoned from eating chips ... the major causes are from fine dust particles. Contractors cause dust and if they disturb lead based paint ... it creates lead dust.

To CYA, agents need to learn to not suggest non-certified contractors if the seller ask for references.

Also, agents need to ask about any non-certified work. If uncovered, they should insist owner disclose this. Very simple steps, but few agents do it.

I remember riding a bike without a helmet too. Good times.

I always wonder why perfectly heathy adults cruise down a quiet street on a bike wearing a helmet. That's what hands are for.

We made it here without bike helmets, but now if you don't wear one your a thrill seeker.

If your on a high traffic traffic road or off road trail go for the helemt. But for goodness sake let your kids roll around and experience life without a protective shell.

If you believe in helmets so much, wear them in the car and insist your passengers do to. Your more likely to experience a head injury in a car than on a bike.

You can't do that!!!!! What are you thinking????
You and your children must be protected from everything that could be dangerous. That's also why we have to have the TSA (Total Sexual Assault) feel you, your wife, and your children up and down in your private areas and blast you with a naked body scanners to protect you from terrorists. Nevermind that more people die from bee stings and car accidents every year than a terrorist attack in this country.....

It's lawsuit happy survellience society where soon even cooking your own food in your own house is going to be illegal without being certified.

I'm waiting for someone to sue a lender for a health illness due to excessive cat urine smell. Then we'll need a state certified frickin' cat urine remover specialist which will require a five week training course in proper preparation and abatement of cat urine. It'll have neat power point presentation, cost $3000 plus the hotel room since it will only be held in select cities.

Get real.

I talked to a family that had a child that has a rare disorder where the kid craves lead. They eventually had to build a new house to ensure it was lead free.

He gnawed window sills, licked walls, would even chew on chunks of plaster from the walls. It was the damnest thing.

I think the comment comparing him to a destructive puppy who needed caged likely cost me the opportunity to list their property.

One of the interesting things about lead based paint poisoning is that it doesn't only affect kids. In adults it doesn't have the same effect as in kids, the symptoms are fatigue during the day and insomnia at night. Sound familiar anyone?

*wonders how much smarter she'd be if she didn't spend the first 11 years of her life in a 100+ year old farmhouse with lead paint and probably lead pipes AND who had her cuts, scrapes, and other wounds treated with mecurochrome and had Vicks stuffed up her nose and was given hot whiskey to drink when she had a cold*


*thinking*

People should make more cheap candy readily available, and their kids wouldn't be reduced to eating paint chips.

PS: I've heard that you don't get tooth decay from eating paint chips. Is that true?

Thats a true staement but paint chips will bind you up tighter than Vermont cheese! So I have been told.

I find it amazing that society survived today. It must have been close to armageddon back when everything was painted with lead paint.

Wow!

Maybe a short course on lead based paint is needed (except with the possible exception of deapsea).

Eating paint chips is very over rated as a cause of lead poisoning. First, because very few children eat paint chips. Secondly, is because very few paint chips have lead in them. Thirdly, the stomach doesn't digest lead very well. It usually just gets pushed out during a bathroom break.

Example: You can swallow a small 1/16 fishing weight and it may cause you to burp and that is about all. However, grind that sinker up into fine dust, swallow it ... and you won't even have time to call the ambulance. Particle size matters.

2.5 million kids (under 5) a year have a loss of IQ, behavioral changes, do poor in school, aggressiveness, personality changes and etc. from breathing in or swallowing fine lead dust about the size of one of these periods (punctuation mark) you see in this post.

Lead based paint was a premium product back in it's day. It cost more to purchase, so I doubt you would find much of it on old farm houses :)

If a house has lead based paint in/on it, it doesn't mean it is everywhere. It could be on the radiator or just on the windows. You could sand 90% of the house and you may never sand any lead based paint.

But when you do ... danger Will Robinson.

In fact, I can sand a 1' x 1' section of lead based paint and create enough dust to contaminate 10 - 2,300 sq ft homes. This using lead clearance levels (safe limits) for floors.

Lastly, if you are your kids got elevated lead blood levels ... you would never even probably know it. 99% of lead poisonings fall under being asymptomatic. In other words, you will have no headaches. No cough. Not even a sniffle. No outwardly symptoms at all.

Yet, harm is being done inside.

rant finished :)

Another thought ...

I wouldn't be surprised if close to 50% of pre-built 1940 houses sold have toxic lead dust in them.

In the past, the lead disclosure booklet and signature form has CYA. With the RRP ... it changes everything.

You know, anyway for them to attack the little man and make him suffer. Big Agra can put all kinds of pesticides, aspartame, and genetically modified crap in our food and that's okay (even though you'll likely see similar symptoms in people over time and some right away).

The whole LBP thing is a crock and the only one's seriously pushing it are the one's who can make a profit out of it. I'm opening up a class to teach people how to properly remove cat urine from a house and avoid lawsuits later down the line. The cost is $3500 per student and you have to fly out to Hawaii for the course. Any takers?

Didn't think so.

"The whole LBP thing is a crock ..."

I respect your opinion and I'm certain it came after much studying and research.

However, I would personally be more influenced by the tens of thousands of doctors, hospitals, universities, researchers and scientist across the nation who disagree with you.

But, I have no problems with you calling all of them liars.

Seriously though, you don't have to believe in it, to protect yourself from lawsuits. Risk management is not about beliefs, it is about protecting yourself from new laws that come up and that can open you to lawsuits, whether you believe in the law or not.

Dean,
Follow the money.

You and I have heard for a long time about global cooling....wait it's global warming......no it's now an ambigious climate change. All man made caused mind you. Did you know recently some scientists have said the sun has no effect on our climate at all. They have got some letters after their name so it must be true, right? Al Gore has had plenty of nice charts, graphs about how man is destroying the planet while he lives way out of proportion to the crap he preaches. Should I believe what he says and look at his actions?

Doctors have been paid for in the past and universities subsidized with government money to put out propoganda for someone else's agenda and if the line is not toted, the gravy trains end. Look at all the materials now coming out counteracting the propoganda about how fluoride is good for you. It's a money machine. If the government has promoted it you should be skeptical. If you find the government has funded the studies, be very skeptical.

....and you're right. I don't have to believe it to protect myself from lawsuits but I can still be vocal about it. It's still a crock.

Danneskjold,

Fully understand.

I have a friend that thinks the moon landing was stage. Another buddy that long term cig smoking doesn't hurt smokers. He basis it off of his grandmother who smoked and lived to be 94.

We're still friends.

I'm just the type that likes a little research, testing and studies, instead of an opinion without back up.

Later

Then there's Radon. Not safe to live inside anymore...

I live under the assumption if someone has a good lawyer, they will find someone to sue. REALTORs will always remain targets. That's the upside of working for a larger Broker, they have lawyers too. Mind your P's & Q's and you should be OK.

Regardless of what anyone might think about it, it is illegal to paint a house built before 1978 without your painter being certified in the safe handling of LBP. The fines are huge, and if you refer a non compliant painter to a client/ Seller to paint and they get fined you will be sued.

So even if you think that the laws enacted for environmental protection are some kind of conspiracy by "the man" out to get us, you would still be smart to be careful when giving advice to clients.

Anyone who doesn't stress to a client that has infant children to take lead seriously is taking a huge risk, legally, morally and ethically.

R. Danneskjold, let me guess, you don't believe in evolution either. right?

and no shoes either!

The homes I've been in with LBP, they're older, and the folks there, in that price range - they don't even bother to clean themselves, or move around much for that matter. I think their flatulence is probably the only thing that would raise a dust storm.

LOL, raise a dust cloud....great one liner. LOL

Dean if eating paint ships and plaster and other things is so rare, why did the Maternal and Family Health Services in PA continually ask me and other expectant mothers if we had strange cravings to eat the above? It was very annoying. They were pretty curious about it and I don't know if they still do but with every single pregnancy, and then later when signing up my kids for WIC assisance (for help with baby formula, milk, cereal, eggs, etc.) they made me fill out forms stating that neither I nor anyone in my household had the burning desire to consume paint chips, plaster, gnaw on wood, etc.

One of my friends found it quite humorous and when he and his wife came over for dinner, he said "Hey, Karen, I have dessert covered!" and he whipped out a plastic bag of...paint ships and spackling and the like.

Good times.

Karen,

Pica disorder is a concern for many reasons, but on the list of getting lead poisoning it is low compared to lead dust. Eating non-food items can cause many problems. Many of us have it to some degree or another. Chewing school pencils, biting finger nails and etc. More women and children do it more than men.

If you were pregnant, it was already to late to worry about lead poisoning. A 5 year old girl can get elevated blood lead levels and lead poison her new baby 20 years later. After lead goes through the blood, it gets stored in the bones and then can be drawn out by the fetus.

I thought that "pencil lead" was a misnomer, and that the blackening agent in pencils is actually just harmless graphite (carbon) . . . . and that there is no lead in the paint coating the outside either.

Vermont,

You are right. I was talking more about Pica disorders (chewing and swallowing non-food items) and not about chewing on things that have lead.

Sorry for any confusion.

I do, too. However, I also go deeper. I like to look at the histories behind those doing the studies. What else have they done, what have their other theories and opinions been? I'd also like to know where the money came from. Who funded the research or was it truly done out of benevolence? To simply take the studies without researching the individuals is naive. I don't need just backup, I'd like to know who the backup is. People throughout history have sold themselves for less.

You see, Dean, government lies. It's in your face everyday. Read my lips, no new taxes. Uh huh. That didn't happen. We'll only be in Libya a few days. Uh huh. That didn't happen either. We found weapons of mass destruction. Uh huh. Where? I did not have sex with that woman. Uh uh. A whole book could be written on government lies and abuse. So is it Stockholm Syndrome that we continue to trust our abusers be they a D or an R? Makes me wonder.....do we ever take a look at their actions and not what they said or does it just fall down the memory hole?

deepsea, if you'd like to debate evolution you can open another topic. However, if you think the government is so benevolent and would never to do anything to purposely harm us, I suggest you look at the below link which is a declassified CIA document from the NSA archive at George Washington University. It was presented to Kennedy before his assasination.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf

Gets very interesting about page ten.....but let me guess, you believe in the magic bullet theory right????

Hmmmm Lets just say that I definitely don't believe the single bullet theory.... but this is not what the thread or the forum is about.

I never said the government would never do anything to purposely harm us, I just said that lead based paint has been proven harmful and as a Realtor, if you actually give a crap about your so called clients, you should make sure they protect themselves and their kids. Who stands to gain from making that s--t up?

Who stands to gain from blowing this out of proportion? Well, attorneys for one. Any institution or government agency adding this to their curriculum. The licensing authority. Contractors who raise their fees. Some of the contractor's vendors. Inspectors. The only one who doesn't gain a thing is the consumer whose costs go up.

....and giving a crap about clients....that could be taken a lot further than LBP. I wonder how many of us here sold houses to clients we "cared" about who have lost their houses since? It was a nice commission though, eh? Assisting the people you "care" about into 30 years of indentured servitude. Wouldn't call that protecting them or their kids seeing as how often foreclosure and divorce go hand in hand. The kids are the ones who really get screwed.

It is hard to believe I am hearing this stuff come from professional real estate agent on a public forum. No wonder the public thinks so little of us.

It doesn't matter whether this law is right or wrong. We have to follow it.

Personally, I want to thank the OP for letting me know I can be liable for not recommending a certified painter.

It really sucks when the moderators help the peanut gallery ridicule a poster for pointing out new laws we have to follow.

It's hard to believe that you would belittle an open debate between professionals on the premises and motivations behind the law. Could that be why the public may think so little of us? Is it a general lack of critical thinking skills? Spit out what you are fed.....no questions asked?



Nowhere did I say not to.....or could you be implying that my open criticism of it (and calling it a "crock") means that I am encouraging people not to follow it? Asking a question. You tell me.

The board is here for learning and getting different perspectives. Seeing as how you've been around just a year less than I have, you've should have seen your fair share of those opinions voiced and challenged on a myriad of issues. I don't just accept the reasons because Dean said so or my government said so or Bigtoe said so. Neither should you for that matter.



I did not personally ridicule Dean. I challenged the premise behind the law, the legitimacy of that premise, and I made absurd comparisons to illustrate it. I also called it a "crock". I did not call Dean a "crock". If you can find where I personally ridiculed Dean in this post, show me otherwise I will have to conclude that you are making a false statement.

Bigtoe, please unwad your panties. Noboday is ridiculing anyone. This is a discussion/debate of an issue.

Bigtoe, appreciate the support.

I personally don't see this even as a debate/discussion. Rest assured, if this was a debate on facts, I have enough knowledge to protect my position.

To debate "opinions" is a waste in time.

Back to the original subject ...

A good way to show the weakness in a agent's risk management, I could contact the seller and ask ...

1. Did your agent warn you about using Lead Safe Certified Firms on any renovation, repair or painting taking place?

2. Did your agent recommend a non-certified contractor?

3. Did your agent warn you that you should disclose any work done by a non-certified contractor.

4. Did your agent do any construction work personally themselves?

5. Did your agent pay any contractor directly?

If yes, then I probably have an easy lawsuit and in certain situations, could turn them into EPA, who could fine them up to $37,500. Both the agent and their broker.

On the agent representing the buyer ...

1. Did your agent give you time to read the lead disclosure booklet, before signing?

2. Did your agent say you should just assume the home has lead based paint? If so, did they also say you should just assume the home has toxic lead dust?

3. Did your agent warn you about the new changes coming in the RRP, that could devalue your home?

4. Were you given the lead disclosure and booklet before making an offer?

If not, then you may have a good case for a lawsuit.

Real Estate Professionals can take simple minor steps to reduce their risk management dramatically in these areas. This is what the original post was all about. Protecting the agent.

That is $37,500 per day

deepsea,

Correct. Up to $37,500 per day, per incident and even possible jail time. Normally, there are several incidents that each person does.

Even with these high fines, I believe that lawsuits will make the fines look insignificant.

If a lawsuit happens, an agent and/or their brokerage firm will lose ... even though they may win in court.

Yeah, so I guess the attorneys, licensing authorities, the contractors, vendors, and inspectors all got together and lobbied the EPA to change the laws? Or did the EPA do it to raise revenue?

To be technical, the EPA doesn't change laws. If a law is to be changed or repealed it would have to run the gamut through Congress. However, all of that BS can be bypassed by the EPA just creating a new "policy". A basic knowledge of how government works helps to understand this. Your licensing authorities are government, incidentally. As for attorneys, what in the h*ll do you think the House and Senate are primarily made up of? It sure is not managers from your local grocer or your local contractor. This bit of BS also came through the stimulus package mind you.....but more on that later.

Just talking with a few local contractors and reviewing contractor comments on Angie's List should give you an idea. Homeowners and contractors alike don't like it. I took a snippet but you can also find it here :



Also consider this. Where does all the plastic go when the project is over??? Landfill??? It's going to be buried or burnt. How long does it take plastic to decompose? How bad is it if you burn plastic? C'mon, if even if you were gullible enough to believe the EPA meant to protect the environment what is this blantant hypocrisy? We will remove the poison from your home but poison your environment. Don't go outside. LOL!!!!!!

Unless non-government funded or sponsored proof (facts) can be provided, my position stands. To this point, none of that proof (facts) have been provided. Likely because it would be a rare find to not find some individual involved in other areas of government or lobbying. Hence, I see none. All that has been provided is law and ways to protect yourself. It's law but it's doesn't mean the law isn't a "crock".

Oh yea, one more thing. EPA and OSHA regulations are in conflict. I know, just opinion. It's not fact......

http://www.shawnmccadden.com/rrpedia/bid...HA-Requirements

Want more proof it's a racket? Look at the 6.7 mil reward that came through the "stimulus package" for lead remediation to one government funded non-profit. How about this gravy train?



Your statement has just been answered but it's all opinion, none of it fact.

Danneskjold,

To be technical, it isn't a law, but a rule. Two totally different things. I personally call it a law, just for ease of discussion.

Congress (both Democrat and Republican) voted the TSCA in which ultimately forced the EPA to come up with this law. EPA dragged it's heels until the politicians applied pressure. Without getting into a political debate ... don't blame EPA ... blame the people you voted into office.

On another point, EPA doesn't get rich off of this. Any fines collected goes into the treasury ... not EPA's pocket. So, they ain't doing it for the money

As far as Angie's list ... no one is excited about this, including homeowners and contractors. Heck, contractors (which I was one for years) don't like standards, building permits, follow manufacturers recommendations or anything that cramps their style. Where would all these homes be, without building permits and inspections. Fallen to the ground. So to highlight that contractors don't like it ... doesn't carry much weight. A hack contractor would rather wire your whole house, then pay a licensed electrician. Of course it will burn down and kill your whole family.

Tons of studies are not done by the government and not funded by the government. An example: A painter (each and everyday) is lead poisoned from working on lead based paint. They're sick enough to go to the doctor or hospital. The doctor takes blood and sees a ton of lead in it. Doc makes note of the problems they are having. Reports this. This is the stuff studies are made out of. Not government sponsered

On the OSHA VS RRP. Shawn and I email each other. I've written an article for him, so he can post it. Good guy. However, that OSHA article written by that other guy has so many problems with it. If contractor firms would protect their people and follow 1926.62 ... we probably would never had needed RRP and probably would have near the problems we now have. I know OSHA 1926.62. It requires proper house keeping and many times, stricter than RRP. Once again, if contractors worried about their workers, they would have been following OSHA and we probably would have never had RRP to begin with (because they overlap).

But remember ... contractors hate following rules.

That's from the EPA's website. Federal law. If they are inaccurate on something as simple as this, then I think we've got more to be worried about than LBP. I do not think that the EPA is a primary benefactor either, however, the money for these things came directly from the stimulus and is being shelled out to who? You've got some hints in my previous post.....

One of my top clients many years ago was a painter. Brilliant man. He used to joke with me how him and his friends used to take the asbestos covering on the pipes and turn them into spit balls in school. The man lived a long life and died of lung cancer, due to the fact that you couldn't tell the difference between him and a chimney sometimes. No reports from the family about lead in him. Ancedotal just like your example but it's there.

From where I stand in my own market, I can look at the conditions of municipalities with overly bearing inspections and ordinances on the people as opposed to munis without. It's as simple as an east side of town, west side of town view. The towns without the overbearing legislation and needless inspections fair better, in some cases much better than their east side counterparts. No too mention either the corruption scandals with HUD funds that occur and are newsworthy locally.



This to me is a dead giveaway. If OSHA is much stricter than RRP is useless. Sounds to me like this is a government problem. They could not, cannot, or will not enforce what they already got on the books. Since they can't enforce it they create another law/rule less stringent and contradictory to the previous rule they could not enforce in an attempt to enforce the contrary new rules?

Does that make any sense? Thanks for pointing that out for me. Now I'm more convinced than ever, it's a "crock". What a waste of money and resources......

Study more and you will find that it's a Rule.

Your painter friend lived to a rip old age with no problems. Sh.. happens. I'm pretty sure some of his clients didn't.

Being an outdoors man, I like fishing in a clean river/lake. I'm similar to John Stossel and you about government interference, but even John Stossel sees the need for environmental laws/statues/rules. We like the laws that help us and hate the laws that don't help us personally ... even though they help others. Human nature.

OSHA helps employees. The one man company can poison himself. If he hires a sub, they can poison themselves too. No OSHA rules applies. While it is ok to poison yourself, it is not ok to poison others, especially if you are getting paid to do a job.

Head into a court of law and tell them it's your opinion that this is a bunch of crock. I'll head in with expert witnesses and boxes of studies.

So who is guilty of misrepresentation here? You or the EPA?



I don’t think so. I know little about Stossel but I can refute your assumptions of me based on your responses. I don’t think the intentions of all laws are benevolent, even if they benefit me. Earlier in my life it would have been easier to give up and go on food stamps, welfare, section eight. Would that be a benefit? Some would argue so. I didn’t do it. My broker asked me if I wanted to list HUD properties (and we met the criteria) but I would not consider it because I believe that NSP is a complete fraud and I would not compromise myself to sell to a government agency. I can’t list for Fannie or Freddie either for the same reasons. Would it have benefited me? Assuming we received the contract it would have been a nice pad to the wallet but I can’t act against principles I espouse. Rationalizing it would only make me a hypocrite.



That’s a great line……so I go to a federal court where you would be using studies that were either federally funded or federally written with witnesses who at some level were on the federal payroll or recipients of federal grants. Let’s not forget that the conviction rate for federal cases is almost 95% , very similar to that of totalitarian regimes. Of course you’d win……but I haven’t told anyone to disobey the law. I simply called the law what it is, a crock.

So OSHA is only for employees? I see. Then why isn’t RRP simply geared towards the one man shop and his subs? Why pile more crud on the OSHA compliant companies and create contradictory rules? Why have them take new classes with new certifications if what they are already doing exceeds RRP guidelines? Why not let OSHA enforce what they already have on the books for these guys or is OSHA inept? You’re still not answering the question. Companies that comply with RRP are ripe for penalties from OSHA and vice versa. Even if the company wins the fight against the fines and penalties they lose……as you say.

I was hoping you would study some before responding.

EPA's Renovation, Repair and Painting RULE
HUD's Lead Safe Housing RULE

Congress enacts a LAW that is signed by the President to do something. It is then turned over to an appropriate government agency that develops a RULE.

So, in simple terms ... a RULE is a LAW, but a law is not necessarily a rule.

As far as the other lead stuff ... I will quietly give up.