So I've been thinking about this post for several days and the fact of the matter is that in a lot of ways it's actually pretty true to how real medicine works.

The patient goes to a doctor; there is an exam that is performed. Then the doctor goes through case histories and thinks of all the previous patients that exhibited the same symptoms. They read the Comparable patients symptoms and match them to what your mother is experiencing. If the 'Comps' state symptoms that your mom isn't exhibiting they can rule out those causes as to what is wrong with your mom and how expensive your mom's problem will be to correct depending on how they line up with those symptoms. Now is where those additional comments under the patients come in handy. Just like comp comments for houses, there are additional details available like 'Feels Sick in the morning' or 'Tends to have headaches 4-5 days out of the week' that help with the diagnostic of your mom.

Now the Dr. has probably never inspected or talked to the patients in the case history they are reading. They didn't get the chance to examine them or ask them questions so they have to rely on what another specialist in their field of medicine wrote down about that patient in order to diagnose your mom. Since the patient may not have disclosed everything (similar to agents not always giving all the comparable information regarding condition) they do have to give a little bit of room for error that they might not have the whole story. However that does not keep them from reading the case histories and using those to help diagnose their patients.

Things like "feels pretty good most of the time"; "non-smoker"; "has allergies"; "recent double-hip replacement"; "takes vitamins & supplements daily"; "has nausea & vomiting"; "recent facelift and lipo" may actually have more weight than you indicate as obviously if your mom didn't have a recent 'double-hip replacement' and the comp patient that had the same symptoms as your mom did, the treatment should vary due to not needing to worry about complications with a recent surgery during your moms treatment.

But you indicate that you want to rely on the DNA only. So every patient with the same physical characteristics, a woman that is 5'4, blue eyes, 50-60 years old in the same industry of work as your mom would be diagnosed with the same problem regardless of the additional comments regarding symptoms or enviromental factors. They would be treated the same and sent home with the same medicine with no concern to 'has allergies' since we are not worried about comp patients comments so wouldn't have read that the last patient given that treatment with those allergies died.

By your own analogy does this help explain now why comp comments can be important to a client?

J~

Sadly, you missed the point. Others didn't, thankfully.

Here you go:

Mom. Had. No. Symptoms.
Just. Like. A. Drive-by. BPO.

I'd point out that if mom had no symptoms of anything wrong, you probably wouldn't have the concern to have her checked.

Banks don't order BPO's on properties that have no 'symptoms'. They generally order BPO's for 3 main symptoms. Note trades, collateral checks or REO/Foreclosure situations.

Banks/Lenders need BPO's to make these critical decisions. Hense, if they order a BPO and it says REO comps and you're using comps that state 'Completely remodeled' or 'updated kitchen and baths' It's not going to fit the subject's symptom.

Same situation for the a note trade where the client is asking for FMV. If you are pulling comps that state 'Needs work', 'REO', 'Short Sale, 'Bank approval needed' 'Auction' ect... then you are probably not pulling comps to address what the bank is ordering the BPO for.

By not reading these comments when pulling your comparables, you run the possibility of the next agent who comes in with a value variance because they did and now has to dispute your comps to defend their value. And vice versa, do you want to have to defend your comps against a prior agents because they didn't look at the fact that Comp 1 on their list stated it was a shell? Or that Comp 3 stated that the value was in the land itself as structure had no inherent value. This is why my clients find it so important to have MLS comments on their BPO's.

Sadly you seemed to have missed the point that they are important to the client and that is where the money comes from that pays you.

J~

My 15 years of experience doing BPO's has seen the mills change from being "agent centric" (what do you need to help you complete this order?) to becoming "client centric" (you'll do it the way the client wants or we'll get someone else to do it and fire you!).

They are afraid to contact the client and tell them that what they desire in comps is just not available within the artificial guidelines set up by some cubicle dweller who thought that "all comps must be within 1 mile" made sense but only works in their dreams. And when you run into a problem with an agent getting access for interiors they won't notify the client that the contact is uncooperative or just plain lazy and stupid.

So we all participate in this little counterproductive game of BPO musical chairs that aggravates everyone involved.

PA Roadkill

You have articulated my thoughts very well. I've only been doing BPO's and listing REO's for about 9 years. I love it. But there have been a few times that I have just come right out and told the companies that it would be helpful to contact their client and educate them on the area. Some of these youngsters have no business acumen.

And if these asset managers and reviewers are like some of the loan officers I met during the Real Esate Hay Days, then most don't even own a house. They have no idea what is really at stake and local laws and rules.

There is no real training like living through your own real estate issues dealing with property taxes, local inspections and an actual closing or 2 or 3 or 4.

PA if this MB ever asks for nominees for best post of the year, I would vote for this one. Excellent post that I feel the majority of us can relate to. It's all about the bank, with us agents being dispensable tools that are supposed to bow down to the most silliest or unreasonable demand given to us. In all fairness though, that is life in the 21st Century in terms of corporate America's relationship to the people who work for them.

Please bear with me because I am trying to understand this point of view.

American industry is built around customer service and providing the customer with what they want.

Thats why slogans are things like 'Have it your way' 'Think what we can do for you' 'We'll take more care of you ' or 'We never forget you have a choice'

Now granted if I go to a restraunt and order something and they don't have it, they tell me but I still have a choice to accept that and go somewhere else or have what they are providing me. I can't imagine ever going somewhere and being told this is what we have so this is what you're going to get whether you like it or not. Just like when I go out to eat and they tell me that there was a tomato freeze so I can't have a tomato on my sandwhich. I can accept the situation and order the sandwhich understanding it will not have tomato or I can say no thank you, I really want tomato and try to find somewhere else that can provide it.


So why would the BPO industry be excluded from this mindset of providing the customer with the best product within the guidelines they request as long as it can be reasonably accomplished? Clients do ask for comps within 1 mile. And if there is a reasonable explination as to why they can not be provided, generally they accept it and take the order as is.

So here is what I ask. Help me on the dark side understand why this industry shouldn't be built to be client centric like every other company I can think of.

J~

This thread has turned into one of the best I've ever seen on our Forum. I'm honored to have been a part of it in company with such articulate, thoughtful, and experienced agents and brokers.

We are (forgive another analogy) working with the equivalents of boxing comentators who've never been in a ring, and never taken or ducked a punch; but feel experienced nonetheless to critique our performance, question experience, and tell us what we should be doing and how we should be doing it. It sickens me on all levels.

Wow... I would have to at this point make the counter arguement that most of you have never played in my sandbox so really only are making assumptions on how mills handle the end clients with no personal experience to back it up and yet you feel it is okay to critique our performance, question our experience and tell us what we should be doing with the client.

J~

Quick answer: There are no tomatoes.

Very interesting thread of late. In my most humble of opinions (my 2 cents worth which may be overvaluing the actual worth) you do have options.

Option 1 is to do what is asked and get a check.

Option 2 is to refuse to do what is asked for what ever reason and decline the offer of business. (distance, cost of fuel, lack of time, lack of meeting of the minds about what is being asked of you, ethics, etc. etc.)

Option 3 do what is asked (get a check) and vent here which is part of what we are here for.

Option 4 fire the company and no longer work with them for what ever reason you wish.

Option 5 find other customers that you agree with the requirements on.

Option 6 find another line of work.

I am sure there are other options that I have not articulated but it pretty much comes down to the fact that if you are not willing to do what your customer (and they are customers) ask you need to sit back and look at your business plan.

We fired a bunch of Owner Occupied sellers because they could not grasp the reality of our current market. They listed with someone else at an unrealistic price and none of those properties have sold except 1 and it sold for less than we told them to accept 18 months ago.

I do feel that we as local agents have a better grasp on the market than an appraiser or out of area agent who has not been directly involved in our local market but, we too have to deal with unrealistic appraisals and 2nd BPOs in our REO business.

Fortunately every time a company lists higher than what we advised the property sits until it is lowered to that level or below depending on the time on market.

Can we as individual agents (or if we worked together as a group) change the bank's requirements? Not a chance. Can we make money by accepting the reality of the current situation. You Bet!

Do we have to like it? No. Do we have to accept it? Yes. Can we decide not to do it for any one or group of companies? Yes.

We have the right to accept or not accept any assignment from any company at any time. We got a recent REO that required that we pay the $150 tech fee to equator as opposed to the seller paying it. We also had to give up 35% of the list side commission to the midsourcer. Did we take the listing? Yup.

Could we have rejected it if we chose? Yup.

IMHO it all boils down to one thing. Are you willing to provide a product according to customer specifications or not.

I used to work in the Heavy Truck industry. We had customers who asked for things that were basically stupid for what their requirements actually were. But, if we did not give them what they asked for they would have gone to our competitiors who would.

Why? Heavy duty trucks (just like BPOs) are a commodity not a product. Twinkies are a product. They take cost of manufacture, transport, etc. and base the price on those things plus profit.

Builders used to do the same thing because they, and for a long time the general public, thought that Real estate was a product instead of a commodity.

Now the end user (banks and buyers) realize that they do not care what it cost to build, they care what it is worth to them today. Not when it was built or what someone thinks it may be worth in 20 years. If the numbers work today that is what it is worth. If they don't they will not buy.

I would not stand for someone telling me that I should not be asking for fried chicken wings (even though baked is more healthy for me) if fried chicken wings is what I want. I will go somewhere else and find someone who will give me the wings fried.

Not easy to swallow but the truth is rarely what you want it to be and rarely what you think it is but, it is always the truth. Raw an unadorned. Do we have to like it? Nope. Do we have to accept it? Unfortunately, in our current market, the answer can be nothing but Yes.

Like I said my 2 cents worth may be overpriced.

Best Wishes.

I put in bold that word that I loath in terms of doing a BPO for a bank. As a Realtor, that word makes me feel like I have some sort of fiduciary relationship with what I term to be a customer. The bank has zero loyalty to me and has also little confidence, as my BPO is only as good as the prior if applicable. While you may feel I am dealing with semantics of words, I feel it is an important word to describe our different roles as BPO agent vs. someone who works for a mill.

It is the mill who has that sort of relationship with the lender, as their business is more contingent on that kind of relationship. Case in point, if you work for BPO mill "A" and BOA (as an example) decides to no longer use mill "A" but mill "B" instead, you loose out as you are only an employee of mill "A". There is a very good chance that I still will get work from this bank as I also could very possibly work for mill "B". Thus the mill's loyalty I humbly feel will be to side with the bank vs. the agent in matters of when things could go either way.

This isn't necessarily J~ how I believe you personally feel, but mills in general. I hope I am making sense which at times I confess I don‘t know if I do. I know what I am thinking, but sometimes it's hard for me to conciesly articulate that thought as in this case.

"I hope I'm making sense........." Oh no....it's finally happened.......you've completed one too many BPO's......lol.

Brad, that's really a great post. I get it.

So, you don't feel a fidiciary duty when you do a BPO for the mills? That they are a customer rather than a client. Like if a consumer calls you and wants an idea of what his property is worth, but doesn't know if he'll list it with you or another agent yet-- or he may just list it himself, or may not list it at all. A "customer". Well, really a PITA! But certainly not a "client".

I think you're right. Although last time "fiduciary duty" was discussed on another thread in conjunction with BPOs, the Train From Crazytown pulled in, one individual got off, and said there was a fiduciary duty to the mill.

But you're right. There is no "client" relationship with the mills. That doesn't mean that we lie to them or mislead them-- we try to do a workman-like job. Most of us.

I just finished a BPO for an AMC on one of my new assignments. So, should I think of them as a "clustomer"?! They have no loyalty to me whatsoever, take orders from THEIR client.

Maybe we should start a new thread on who is a client and who is just a customer!

Yes, that is correct. They (the bank via the mill) is a customer who I have a responsibility to give an accurate BPO using the best diligence that I can provide to them. That is all. They pay me the fee and we both move on after that. For me its that simple.



I agree, like I stated above. Now if a mill of a bank wants to hire me exclusively to do BPOs for them, that's another story. Just like a seller hires a Realtor to sell a house of theirs via a listing agreement or a buyer via an exclusive buyer agreement, then the fiduciary relationship is established and then becomes a client. What we do for the amount we receive is far apart from that IMHO. The mill is the one that has that kind of relationship with the banks, thus their allegiance is more to their side of the equation than to ours.



Good idea, and there will be a variety of opinions I'm sure, and would provide for good reading and thought sharing.