Hi - how would I obtain the purchase agreement for a sale that took place 5 years ago in California? The real estate agent handling the sale did not keep a copy. There was also nothing on file at County records (Placerville).

Would the title company have a copy? If so how would I find the title company used?

The property went through forclosure about a year ago.

Thanks very much.

I don't know about California; but here in Vermont the Broker (not the Agent) must keep these records for 7 years. So I'd suggest that you check with the Agent's Broker.

Gosh, I can hold my breath 5 years.

The Attorney (or Title Company) should certainly have a record of who their Clients were, and copies of the Contract that was the basis for the Transaction.

If there is a Transfer Tax collected at Closing in California (and I'm sure there is), the Form used to report the amount of the Tax is completed by the Title Company or the Attorney handling the Sale. Some identifiable person signed the Transfer Tax Return certifying the accuracy of the Tax Calculation. The County would have that Form, and you should be able to find the Preparer's name there.

What item(s) of information are you trying to locate?

Thanks Vermont. I had a real estate broker check with the broker handling the sale(sorry for the confusion). I've forgotten the amount of time that brokers are required to keep purchase agreements in California - but according to the broker that amount of time had elapsed.

This concerns some non-real estate items that were added to the purchase agreement. I need the purchase agreement to show a change of ownership of the non-real estate items.

This was a small farm - the items were a tractor and farm implements and such.

Assuming I can find the Title Company - would they release a copy of the purchase agreement to me? I was not involved in the sale in any way - and am not a broker or agent.

Thanks again Vermont.

As you, and probably this other broker were not party to this transaction, neither of you are privy to any copies of anything that is not public record without consent of the seller, buyer, and other agent(s)/broker(s) involved in this sale. Sorry to bust your bubble.

The P&S won't necessarily fill that billet anyway. The P&S will just demonstrate what the intentions were of those Parties at a certain point in time, not the conclusion of their activities.

If the Conveyance actually included Personal Property, such as the Farm Equipment, or Livestock, then the resulting Deed may have referenced that property in its body, and stated that it (the Deed) would also serve as a Bill of Sale for transferring the Ownership of those items, in addition to the Real Estate.

Otherwise, a separate Bill of Sale may have been prepared, and that transfer of Personal Property conducted outside the Closing, and it may have never recorded in the Land Records. Read the Deed . . . . that's a Public Record.

Thanks KT and Vermont - So the Purcase Agreement by itself is not legally binding? Say in a court (which is where this might be heading) only a separate bill of sale or a reference in the Deed would legally bind both parties?

What does the purchase agreement represent? A worksheet to prepare the Deed?

I'll check the Deed - but boyoboy - I think I may be in trouble.

It's certainly binding upon the Parties to it; and in the event of the death, or other incapacitation of one of the Parties, the other Party may still sue for performance by the heirs, of the completion of commitments made by the decedent.

But you said you were not one of the Parties to the 5 Year Old Contract, so I'm not sure that you'd have any standing, or interest in whether either of those Parties performed their respective duties to one-another or not.

Is someone now challenging your ownership of certain Farm Equipment that you thought was automatically included in the purchase of a Foreclosure? With the information provided, that's what it sounds like to me.

Did you have an Attorney at the time of your own Purchase ? Was he made aware of your assumption that the equipment was part of your purchase of the Real Estate.

Important Notice: This information is provided as basic educational information by the author and is not a substitute for the advice of an expert and/or the advice of a Lawyer. There is NO representation as to legality, accuracy, correctness of the herein information and the reader is strongly urged to consult an Attorney in the relevant jurisdiction to ensure accuracy before acting on this information.

Thanks again for taking the time Vermont...maybe I should have provided all details from the getgo.

About a year and a half ago I puchased some farm implements at a barn sale. I paid several thousand dollars. I didn't have a place nearby to store nor the means to transport the items - so I asked the owner of the property if I could leave them there in the barn. The items required some repair/maintenance and I intended on doing it there in the barn.

About 2 months after that the owner (same person I bought the items from) was subject to the initial stages of foreclosure.

The next day (2 months from when I bought the items) the original owner from 5 years ago of the property showed up and trailered the items away. He claimed they were his.

I immediatedly called the sheriff - he called both parties (buyer and seller from 5 years ago) and informed me that he could make neither heads nor tails of ownership - and my only recourse was to go to court.

The person I bought the items from gave me a copy of one page of the purchase agreement from 5 years ago that specifies some of the items. So I have a copy of one page of the 8 page purchase agreement that does show that some of the items were sold with the real property.

Meanwhile the person I bought the items from has moved out of the area - and doesn't respond to emails.

I've gleaned that there was bad blood probably involving verbal agreements between the buyer and seller from 5 years ago. However the original seller did not have any liens on the property.

I feel that if I could get a certified copy of the purchase agreement - and it showed that the items were legally his (buyer from 5 years ago) that I should be able to get at least some of the items back.

Is that convoluted enough? I guess the lesson here for any agent/broker types is not not to mix real and personal property on purchase agreements if possible.

Beyond that I'm open to suggestions. This matter isn't quite enough economically to warrant an attorney - if I take it to court it would be small claims.

Thanks again to all.

Vermont - I got a kick out of your disclaimer - no worries sir...

Before choosing to go to Small Claims, I'd consult your State Bar Association and see if you can get a referral to some legal guidance. A quick pro bono review may reveal that you have a case that warrants pursuit WITH an Attorney, or verifies that you're wasting your time even going to Small Claims Court.


Once again, that Contract would only show what the intent of those Parties was at that time . . . . not what was actually transferred. Right now, your best hope is to find the Personal Property itemized in the Deed that was recorded in your local Land Records.

If there's any chance to recover something, then you'll avoid kicking yourself later if you don't take it. This sounds almost impossible because you're needing to prove that the Farmer you bought the stuff from actually owned it . . . . and that person is no longer even helping you to prove it !

Regardless, you have a lot of research to do BEFORE you can go to any Court. Did you get a Bill of Sale at the time you bought this stuff? Did the Farmer make any representations that he actually owned the stuff he sold you? I don't know the validity of it; but people keep repeating that "Possession is 9/10s of the Law", so if you hear it often enough, it takes on an air of truth, doesn't it ? It doesn't sound like you ever actually took possession of this equipment. Do you have the identity of the Guy who showed up and collected )or re-possessed0 "his" stuff from the Farmer?

Here's an idea. A former Client of mine, who was gypped out of some land, when he bought 89 Acres but received less than 40 Acres . . . . had good luck approaching a Local Law School. 3rd Year Law Students did a really bang up job, under the supervision of their Professor who was a member of the Bar, and they prepared a good Brief for him to go to Court with while suing the Real Estate Agent, the Attorney, the Bank, and the Former Owners in order to be made whole again.

What would have cost him $50,000 was done for less than $10,000 . . . . and he was awarded his damages plus his Court Costs . . . . but he had taken minimal risks along the way. It took only 5 years. In a small community, it's always hard to find an Attorney who will sue another Attorney.

Good luck . . . . you'll need it.

Yikes Braulio. There are a couple of things here.

Personal property (chattle) is often included in real property sales all the time. Usually, I've heard of lenders recommending a seperate addenda being written for things other than, say appliances, or a hot tub that is, or can be "attached" to the property, but can be "removed." When it comes to items like furniture, or what you're saying here such as farm equipment. These items aren't or potentially are not "Real Property." And I do agree w/Vermont (Vermont has forgotten more about RE than many of us will ever know) it's pos these items may be on the deed.

Who initiated the foreclosure? A bank? The prior owner - was he holding a note/mortgage on the home? The prior owner may actually have a claim in the items somehow.

Do you have any type of receipt/bill of sale from when you purchased the times?

Unless all the parties come to an agreement, or you are able to find out some info through public records, I think, unfortuantely, (and it sucks) posession may be 9/10 of law.

Not to be taken as any legal advice what so ever. (Shorter than Vermont's)

HAHAHA! Vermont! Should have looked before I hit the submit button!

Thanks again KT and Vermont - I'll check back in after I've done some research but I'll address two items now...

1) The foreclosure was by Wachovia. As far as I can tell there were no liens. The prior owner did not carry any notes/mortgage.

2) The 9/10ths rule...yes...that was my first concern. I asked the sheriff what would happen if I drove over to the original sellers house and reclaimed the items (after all ownership is ambiguous as far as the sheriff is concerned right?) He convinced me that that would not be a good idea.

Oh well.

I really appreciate your folks' interest and advice. I'll keep you updated.

KT . . . . You are too kind. Actually, it is this Forum that helps remind us of so many miserable little details that otherwise would would have passed on into oblivion. The Forum breathes new life into old events.

Still, I need to know what kind of Farm Machinery was involved in this controversy, and might those pieces have carried Serial Numbers or UCC Identification?

I never would have paid thousands of dollars for equipment and then leave it there. Regardless of if you are entitled to the property or not that was a huge mistake.

The person getting foreclosed might not have owned the pieces and sold them to you for quick cash.If it foreclosed 2 months later the owner knew what was going down and was selling everything off.

There were a couple of red flags in this but you just missed them.

Good luck on recovery. Even if you win in small claims court and get a judgment over 90 percent of judgments never collect a dime. So what I am saying is you will spend a ton of time and money for nothing.

In the end you will have to decide if you want to spend hundreds of hours on this or just chalk it up to a learning experience and move on.

super realtor - I knew the owner personally and did some work for him over a period of several months - so it wasn't quite like I was handing cash to a total stranger. The equipment had been on the property and used by him for about 3 years....but yes...your points are well taken. I do have a tendency to do deals based on handshakes. That's a bad habit.

Vermont - The principal items were a Kubota tractor, a Kawasaki Mule (2 seater ATV type deal) and a commercial riding lawn mower. They all have serial numbers. None was registered with the DMV in California. Registration is not required if they are used on the farm. I have a hand written bill of sale - the seller acknowledged to the sheriff that they were his property and that he sold them to me.

Thanks again to all - I'll be headed to the Placer County Records in the next day or two - I'll post findings.

Good luck and I hope it works out. When I do a deal I expect the worst and if everything tuns out great it's a bonus.

If you go by a handshake and expect the best you will get burned sometimes. Those days of walking in a bank for a loan with a handshake and a smile are gone.

As a followup: I did receive the "Grant Deed" from Placer County for this transaction - the only things listed were the parcels of land in the sale. I'm assuming that the Grant Deed is the only document that was recorded with the County for this sale and that there is no other document that would list items from the Purchase Agreement.

So I guess I'm out of luck.

Thanks to all who took time to respond - I appreciate it.

These are very informative forums - I'll check back now and then.

Don't do deals on handshakes - and grab the merchandise when you pay for it (note to self).

Brad.

The items you listed are expensive purchases. I don't know why the hand-written bill of sale would not be honored. Have you tried talking to the local prosecuting attorney?