I have been feeling beat down calling FSBO's, so I have been mailing a flyer to expired's and following up with a call. Any advice on an opening line? Anyone having luck with these?? I am still pretty green and looking for a good solid plan. Thanks,
Jennifer

You might want to look into Borino's X-Plus program:

http://www.expiredplus.com/

Oooh, thanks! All resources welcome ;)

He has a blog on ActiveRain w/ some good info:

http://www.activerain.com/blogs/borino

Thanks, Karen!

Hey Jennifer, here is an entire chapter on how to contact expireds - from my Expired Plus 2.0 course. My best scirpts, questions and dialogs. Enjoy!

http://expiredplus.com/audio/expired-plus-free-chapter.htm

Thanks Borino! What a nice gesture to share your information.

"Expired Listings?"

best business in the business.

reasons they are great.

they have found out that their way does not work and are often very open to listen to a competent agent tell them what they need to do to sell

you dont have to explain how a lockbox works

the competition taht you go up against gives you the opportunity to really, really shine

expireds are an easy business to be able to implement systems so that you will always have leads, appointments, clients and closings.

i could go on and on

forgot to add, you already know they will pay a commission.

Hello Borino!

I wish that we could market to expired listings!!

why cant you work expireds?

It's illegal here due to privacy laws.

MHT,

please answer so that i have clarification.


if there is a street with 10 homes and 1 is listed for sale and the listing expires, then you choose to send a letter to the 10 homes that are on that street, would you have to exclude the listing that was expired because you cannot market to them?

now, if you have 10 homes on the street and all 10 expire, are you allowed to market to that street?

if you have 10 homes on teh street and all 10 expire and you see 1 that you would like to sell, are you allowed to market to that 1 particular home?


if you have a street with **no**homes for sale that have never been on the market since a builder, built and sold them (all are original owners) can you target a specific home in your marketing if you wnat to become their agent?

If it can be shown that you are specifically targeting expired listings in such a manner (ie. you consistently just happen to be marketing to a small group of homes which always contains an expired listing) then you would be in violation.

Our listing agreements now have a place for a seller to choose whether or not they wish to be contacted by agents upon the expiry of their listing. On the MLS system, we as agents can see if they have chosen to be contacted or not....I have yet to see someone select the option to be contacted by agents upon expiry. They all show "Expired-No Contact".

Sorry, just saw the other questions. If there are 10 houses on a street and all 10 expire, you are out of luck....if you wanted to just pick one of those houses, you are still out of luck (your only way around this in both cases could be a mass mailing, or possibly if you can show that you farm a particular neighborhood and frequently send out mailings to the entire area and it just so happened that an expired listing got a mailing due to these mass mailings). The reason that expired listings are off limits under the privacy laws is that you have obtained the private information regarding the seller/listing from information that they had given only in regards to the original listing agreement....it is not assumed that this information can be used by others beyond this agreement. If they were not an expired listing then they are free to go after.

MHT,

Thanks for the clarification.

the reason i asked so many questions is so that i could paint a clear picture of what is and is not allowed. privacy laws! wow. that really stinks! i guess mass mailings and farmings would be the way to go in a market in canada.


i just thought of this. i have been following lucky's thread.

he cold calls 100 people every single day. what if one of them happens to be an expired? he is calling a geographical area. he is not targeting a home because it is expired. he is simple calling everyone in the area and i am sure he could prove that.

he is good to go is he not?

Yes, I believe he is fine. He can easily prove that it was not through the MLS system that he was obtaining his call list and that it was a coincidence that he called an expired listing. Now, if he were to start the conversation, "Hi Mr.Homeowner, I see that your property just expired....." then he's in obvious violation. This conversation tonight got me looking at some case law with regards to this topic. There was a case where a rep called an expired listing and stated that they were calling because they had seen that it had expired....problem was, their current agent was sitting at the table with the seller when the call came in. It was also shown that the agent had an abnormally high percentage of listings which had previously expired....busted. lol


BTW, I have no problem answering questions regarding things up here....I have learned a lot about the American system from this board. I have had to Google some of the terms but I'm catching on!

my business plan would be out hte window in Canada.

i would have to use other methods instead of expireds. very interesting to see how other countries work. thanks for the insight. i have done some googling since this thread took a turn. just trying to learn a bit.

If you are curious about real estate in Ontario (I will only speak to Ontario since I am not certain how things are in the other provinces) here is a link to a guide to the legislation that governs us (provincially). This will not include privacy concerns as that is separate legislation (federal).

http://www.reco.on.ca/onlineguide/

MHT

Sorry to see your law makers are as incompetent as ours. Just curious what is the fine, money, loss of license, or both? If a fine and not to much I would do expireds all day long, just a cost of doing business.

i am very quorious. what happened to the agent who worked expireds?

I believe that the fine back a number of years ago for the case that I mentioned was around $8000 and the charge was only through the privacy legislation. I would think that if it continued then 2 things would happen....first, the fines would increase, and 2nd, it would be something that would be referred to the real estate side of things for further discipline. Sorry, but I do not subscribe to the "just a cost of doing business" thoeries. If it is illegal, it is illegal. With the real estate legislation there are many ethics violations that could come with that theory and then it would get beyond just a simple fine however, the punishment should not be the reason to follow the legislation that we are governed by. Just my opinion, you are obviously free to have your own.

could you call with intention to set up an appointment to buy the property? while on the appointment, you could offer your services? just like we have here where agents will buy a property and make improvements and sell the property.

I don't think it's ever a good idea to be deceitful .

i would buy any property in the area that would sell for 70% of market value if they used me in the purchase of their second home.....only up to about 250k for purchase, so there is real validity in the offer.

From what I have been able to find, if you have a buyer (I suppose yourself included) who is interested in actually purchasing the property, it is first recommended to contact the former listing brokerage to see if there happens to be an exclusive listing still in place (as all you know from the MLS system is that there is no longer an MLS listing in place). If there is not, then you could contact the seller to "advise them of the situation and that you are not marketing your services but that you have Clients who may be interested in their home" (quoted from a lawyer who answers questions for our provincial association). So you could contact them but you could not offer your services.

I would say at least 90% of all agents couldn't honestly say this, so I don't think it's a good tactic to promote to the masses!

TB,

i agree with you 100% it is not a good tactic. i was looking into the opinions of some "out of the box" ways to market to expireds. to be quite frank, i would be out of business if it were not for expireds.>>>>actually, let me change that....i would have to adapt to something new for my mainstream of business if i could not work expireds...

when this thread came about, i was thinking of the different possibilities of ways that i could legally contact an expired.

lets face it, we each do or should know our business plan intimately. i know mine...when this thread came about i started to think to myself about how or if i would be able to run an expired plan in Canada. i have learned to love expireds even more than a standard come list me call. so much easier to work with an expired in my opinion.

all that being said, it makes no sense that a competent agent cannot contact someone who has interest in selling just because they were listed with an agent that could not deliver. i just dont see the logic in this and i am quite bamboozled:-)

Yeah, I am intrigued by the whole Privacy Law thing, in light of their voluntary participation in an MLS listing, opening up their data to all of the MLS subscribers. It doesn't make sense to me, and I would be all over my provincial Realtor organization to go to work for me on the issue.

The reasoning behind it is that the contracts for listings are private contracts which state that some private information will be used in the marketing/attempted sale of the property. This includes putting some private information on to the MLS system as a form of marketing. The contract does not permit this private information to be used for other reasons such as other companies contacting them with this information. Our new listing agreements give the seller an option as to whether or not they wish to be contacted once the listing expires. When we see an expired listing it will specifically state "Expired-No contact" or...well....I have never actually seen what the other says because everybody chooses the first option! The consumer is given a choice as to whether or not they want their information used upon the termination of the listing and because they all choose no, then that is what they get. This is federal legislation and part of a much larger privacy act than simply targeting real estate. I am not saying that I agree with it (although if I had a property listed as a consumer and my listing expired, I certainly would not want dozens of agents calling my house) but these are the rules we play by.

It is just like the DNC list....all about making the public happy and protecting their wishes to be contacted or to not be contacted.

We caanot use the MLS to contact/solicit previously listed homes. Now of course, you could plead ignorance and contact the entire street zeroing in on the EXPIRED. However, if they could prove you take a lot of expired listings as a result of this strategy, you would be fined. The arguement is that the intent of the MLS is a service to sell the home while listed and not to be on a list for solicitations.

So is the contact information for those expireds (e.g. Owners name) only available because the property was previously listed? Could you get that information elsewhere, like public records?

People have tried to use the excuse that they got the seller's information from the phone book or other public records...that does not make a difference because the only reason that they knew about it was from the MLS system to begin with. Otherwise everybody would simply use 411 on every single expired listing as a way around things.

boy am I glad I am not in Canada.

No kidding. Another example of a good intention that was not thought out - and at the end hurts the consumer.

I don't think that it hurts the consumer....I wouldn't want dozens of people calling me either. At the end of their contract they are free to contact whoever they want, they are not forced to continue to work with the same agent....they just don't have vulture agents trying to do business the easy way calling them.

Also, in our listing agreements there is an option for the consumer to choose between being contacted or not being contacted by agents upon the expiry of the contract. If they feel that they would be benefited by having all of those phone calls then they can choose that option. I still do not see how having a bunch of agents calling the expired listing benefits the customer....the only people it benefits are real estate agents.

"Vulture agents trying to do business the easy way calling them.", eh? You don't seem to have much respect for your colleagues, do you MHT? Or could it be a case of selfprojection - how you feel about you and your business? Just wondering...

Either way, calling expireds is NOT that easy. Especially if you trying to fake it. Or don't know what you're doing.

Here is how it benefits the customer... CHOICE. They can quickly chose from 15-20 good, hard-working agents. Agents who believe in their service and who hussle. Agents who don't mind rolling up their sleves to help their customers (and to put food on their table by actually working).

That's the kind of agent I want to represent me. And I can determine if the person on the other end of the phone matches my expectations in a couple of minutes.

If I don't like the person, I just say thank you and hang up. Fast, easy and effecient. And that's how it benefits both the agent and the customer.

What I meant by that was that you are sitting there letting other agents do the hard and expensive work of finding the listings in the first place and then simply picking up the scraps. Your excuse will likely be, well, the agent should have done a better job. We all know that there are many reasons that listings will expire that have nothing to do with how good the original agent is. Calling expired listings is much easier and cheaper than being the agent who is out there trying to get the listings in the first place and you know that....that is why you started doing expired listings is it not? Am I saying that this is not a legitimate method (if permitted)? Certainly not. And if I was in a market where it was allowed I would probably do some of the same. But let's keep it real as to what you are doing. You are relying on the hard work of other agents to hand you leads.

"Easy to find - they are already waving their hand saying "Hey, we want to sell!"
Inexpensive to market to
Many are motivated to list and sell right away
Frequently more realistic about pricing after months on the market
Most expireds appreciate a good agent
More educated about the listing process because they've already been trough it
Plentiful in most markets"

I understand what you're saying, MHT.

Being involved with expireds for almost 20 years, I have yet to see a listing where the reason it's expired wasn't the listing agent's responsibility.

Price, condition, showing restrictions, terms, commission - at the end - it's ALL the agent's responsibility and part of their job. To educate and assist the seller. To communicate clearly. That's what we do. That's why we get hired.

You're absolutely right, expireds are one of the easiest ways to get listings. Mainly because of so much incompetence.

Yes, there are unrealistic sellers out there. Unreasonable expectations. Low motivation. Crazy circumstances. Change of plans. After all, I had my own listings expire on me. BUT... it's still MY job to get the home sold. My responsibility.

And if it doesn't sell - it's MY FAULT. End of discussion.

Think about it this way... A surgeon performs a complicated surgery. But, in spite of best intentions something goes wrong and the patient dies. Ultimately, it's always the doctor's responsibility.

"Sorry, Mrs. Jones, your husband didn't make it. BUT, the doctor tried really hard!"

Same thing in real estate...

If another agent drops the ball, I will do whatever I can to help the sellers. That's MY JOB. I don't care how hard the other agent worked. We don't get hired or PAID for hard work.

They were hired to - or they accepted the job - to get the house sold. And they didn't get it done.

"Frequently more realistic about pricing after months on the market"

As you state, sometimes it takes them months to come to the realization that their agent may in fact have been correct about the value of their home....unfortunately if they do not listen to the first agent, that first agent loses the listing and then someone else comes along and the seller finally clues in. That is not the fault of the agent. We can suggest, recommend, demand all we want, but we can't force anybody to do anything. I do agree that there are agents who drop the ball....who will say whatever it takes just to get the listing including telling the seller some crazy price that we all know it will never sell for.

If the surgeons starts doing surgery and the patient gets up and walks out part way through, that would be their own damn fault. lol

since we are playing hte game of quoting what others say to use it against them, i would like to put this thread to rest


as much as i want to get into a long winded debate, i don't have time right now.

to me, this quote from you sums it up. you seem to contradict yourself. you state that you wish you could market to expireds then later on it sounds to me that you bash the marketing to expireds. at the very least, you could keep your story the same

i just interviewed against two of the top agents in the area and won just this past friday. truth be told, the seller would have made a great decision hiring any of us!

the last agent they had was not an agent who called them, but an agent who they called randomly. they were very appreciative that i called and made communications with them. same as the guy i put under contract on monday. he was only on with me for 26 days and went under contract. funny thing is that i was able to net him more money in 26 days than his last agent was able to net in 200+ days! he got 2 lowball offers durring his 200 days. we priced correctly, marketed aggressivly and he got traffic and an offer that is $15,000.00 higher than his last agent could get him! we got the realistic buyers...i also forgot to mention that it was a multiple offer situation! he loves us. vulture? let the client determine that. i have never had a client who thought that i am a vulture. i am the solution to their problem.

it is always the fault of hte agent. if an agent cannot or does not tell the truth about pricing in the beginning, then they lack INTEGRITY!


the red quote would be the fault of the anesthesiologist! so yes, it is hte docs fault.

the blue quote...i still blame the agent for not selling....why would an agent list a home that htey know will not sell? DESPERATION FOR BUSINESS? i think so.

^^^^just wanted to go into further detail to show exactly how i feel!

to many people in todays society lack personal accountability. that is why we have coffee lids that say "caution hot beverage"

people need some accountability.

its the agents fault! no excuses

I also stated in this very discussion that if it was permitted then I would likely do so...I am not saying I wouldn't....I referenced it as vulture activity because it is picking up the scraps from the agents who spent the time and money on getting the original listing in the first place...I still stand by that. If a vulture had to go out and hunt their own food they would be in trouble as would many of the agents who rely solely on expired listings. I do not contradict myself, I state what the activity is like. I do not lie to my sellers about the value of their home...I show them them what it is worth. If they then state, well I want to try at this other higher price, I explain to them that if they want to try it, that is fine, but we will be re-evaluating within the first couple of weeks if we do not get activity and they agree. If, after a couple of weeks we get nothing I go back to them and say see, this is what I was telling you. If they choose not to change the price at that point have I lied to them? Have I let them down? No, they have decided that even with all of the market information, the lack of activity, etc they still do not want to lower their price. That is on them. Now, 3 months later and after being told repeatedly that the price is too high, still nothing. I let it go because they are not being reasonable and this act causes them to finally re-evaluate and another agent gets the listing at the price I told them over and over and of course it sells. If you want to still blame this on the listing agent then you obviously do not listen to reason. Are there MANY incompetent agents? Of course. To paint every expired listing with the same brush is not fair to the agents who do their job properly but for whatever reason the house does not sell.

Ultimately, it is the sellers who decide on the price (albeit, with input/advice from the Realtor). If you do not think that it is a reasonable asking price and that it would not be a wise investment of your marketing time, then you dont have to take the listing. Many realtors take overpriced listings which ultimately expire, would that be the fault of OTHER realtors who are then in a position to garner interest from the sellers (hopefully at a more realistic price)?

Believe me, I have walked away from listings that were overpriced....I was referring to the clients who will say one thing then do another (aka lie to their agent). When it comes to money people will say and do things that are out of character. With not being able to call expired listings the consumer has the choice to call whoever THEY want once their contract has expired, rather than having many agents calling trying to get the listing....to me, this sounds like a better option for the consumer....and why every seller that I have met (and by the looks of the MLS system, EVERY other seller too) chooses this option over permitting other agents to call upon expiry.

The consumer has this choice with or without the help of the privacy law. Some of the best salespeople I ever met who helped me immensely I never even knew existed until they contacted me.

This is in response to MHT's comments.

First of all I'd like to say that I'm a licensed Realtor based out of Toronto, Ontario, Canada as well.

Now I have just purchased Borino's expired plus system and I fully plan on implementing it and using it to help people sell their homes.

There are 2 ways to look at yourself MHT. You can either think of yourself as a vulture real estate agent out there picking up scraps and selling to people or you can think of yourself as a professional who cares about people and wants to help them accomplish their goals. Ofcourse we get paid for this, but it's hard work and this is how we choose to make our living.

How you choose to find your business is solely up to you. I know many agents who prospect fsbos, go door-to-door, direct mail, sphere of influence and expireds (yes, expireds, here in Canada).

Now, since the doctor-patient is so popular, i'm going to throw another one out there....

Imagine that you or one of your someone you care about had a condition that required surgery for full health to be regained. Now let's say that a suregon performed surgery but the surgery was not done right. Now in order to take care of this condition you still need a successful surgery to happen. Now if a competent surgeon, with a history of helping other people with unsuccesful surgeries, contacted you and expressed an honest desire to help you and truly believed that they can do so, would you not take the time to listen. Now if you truly felt that they can help you, would you not be relieved that this person found you??

Ofcourse there are some unethical agents out there who will advise sellers to make a decision that is only in the agents best interests such as convincing the sellers to sell or buy if there is really no true motivation, desire of benefit to the client. Just like in any profession there are people who take their job seriously and others who lack the competence or the integrity.

I don't see how helping people accomplish what they originally sought out to do, considering that the desire still exists, can be perceived in such a negative light by you.

I think you should try helping some expireds out and it will change your perception. Yes, it might not get you liked by some of the other agents out there but we can't please everybody and if you had to pick between pleaseing agents or homeowners who need to sell, who would you pick?

There's nothing wrong with getting in touch, showing them what you can offer and if they're interested in hearing more, great! If not, then you've tried and you're going to walk away.

That's all well and good except that it is illegal due to privacy laws. Some agents choose to follow the laws, others (including yourself apparently) choose not to.

Interesting discussion...and valid points. Here is a question:

Do you always - ALWAYS - drive the speed limit?
Do you always report the exact amounts on your income tax?
Do you always... well, you get my point.

I am all for privacy. Mine, my customers' and public in general. All good. But there are times when a well-intended rule or a law creates unintended consequences. Like this one. It does nothing (or very little) to protect the sellers' privacy. And it prevents good, honest agents from helping folks.

At the end, each agent has to decide what is ultimately the right thing to do. Just like sometimes you drive the speed limit, and sometimes you don't.

That is the argument people always use to try to get away with breaking all sorts of rules/laws and to be honest it is a pathetic one. Would you like me to rob your house just because I think I can get away with and and then say oh well, you speed right? Here, consumers are given the option if they want to be contacted or not once their listing expires....THEY are the ones that are choosing to not allow agents to contact them. The consumers have spoken and said that they do not want to be contacted.

always follow the golden rule.

do that and you will be able to sleep at night!

i dont want tow truck drivers calling me on my cell phone, but you better believe that if im broke down on the side of the road and a tow truck driver gives me a call...i'll be glad that he called to solve my problem!

maybe soliciting people who have not expressed a need or want to sell(normal marketing) is more annoying to the consumer than calling somoene who has expressed the interest in selling(expired marketing)!

Except that they have explicitly stated that they do not want to be contacted....just like the DNC. They have said that they do not want you calling so don't call. It's not the annoyance part, it's the legality part and doing as the consumer has instructed.