What do you do when you have to find a value of a way under priced short-sale condo? I know this bpo company states that the value can never be over the list price. The unit was a complete rehab with high end upgrades. The list price is way off. Even looking at the sales comps, the list price is 15-20k off. Usually it is the other way around with a over-priced listing. geez.

We are not allowed to use short sales for actives. Only solds. The agents putting them all over the map price wise is the reason we can not use them. You are in a bit of a pickle since your BPO company will not allow over list. I would try to tell them the truth. That is was out of whack when originally listed.

Its my license on the line. I give a BPO and thats it. Want me to adjust my price OPINION? NO. Its my opinion. Its my license on the line. This is my Brokers Price Opinion. I signed and said this is my opinion.

Tell me i'm to high, to low in price and give me new criteria to fir you need, I can do that. Put it in writing though so I have a paper trail, and pay me the for the legit BPO and for the second BPO.

Its my license at risk with every BPO. If i'm way off one way or the other, its my license they come after. Dictate the price point you want as a client, find another vendot. I will give you a BPO and justify my price.

I know. I will have to give them the list price as the 90 value. I have no choice. Too bad. The policy of this company is nothing over list. Thanks for your opinions, I appreciate it.

Wow- I probably value half of my BPOs over the current list on a short sale. I document it well, have comps to back me up and thats that. In my market, I see short sales listed well below all the comps. I never get any flack for valuing higher than the list price....just have the comps and explaing yourself well..

I have to agree with Dayton. Get it in writing that they will not accept any comps over list.

Your license is your livelyhood. I would NEVER put mine on the line. Easier to find a new customer than lose it.

I don't let BPO companies dictate to me where a price is. The comps are the comps and I give my opinion based upon the price I used. If your sale/list comps are way over the listed price that is not your problem. I based my BPO on the comps and my experience in the area. End of story. Because I take a hardnose approach I do not do BPOs for everybody. I stick with the companies who appreciate the way I do BPOs.

I know. I just had another one fail QC because this company states value cannot be over list price. I already stated that I felt the property was listed undervalued. Thanks for your input.

First of all, you are saying that you already have a predetermined value of the subject before you even pull the first comp. So if a LA lists a short sale property at $1, you need to justify valuing the subject at 99 cents?

I know my analogy is extreme and asinine, but what I am saying is you have an obligation to "the client" to evaluate the property for what it would sell for at an arms length transaction under current market conditions. You need to remember, who set the list price? Was it the owner who just wishes to walk away from the property with minimal credit damage or an overaggressive LA who wants offers? Too many times I have had to do BPOs on short sale seeking listings and document why my value is above list price. To put it politically correct I usually state in my remarks something like, "The subject's current list price is more reflective of a quick sale value, rather than a 90 day value based on all compiled data."

You should value at what the comps tell you the value truly is, not some shumck LA who is undervaluing the property to unload it quickly. My $0.02....

Best of luck!!

Like these are Laws of Physics or something.

Objects Heavier than Air cannot fly either !

yes, I agree. It is a short sale priced under valued in hopes of receiving multiple offers. Ok. the bpo company is like who cares. well, they didn';t say that exactly, but I know the rules. So it will be priced low and then the bank will receive a higher offer and most likely take it because the appraisal will come in at the correct price. exactly what I had with my buyer at my last short sale closing. the bpo came in 15k under, priced about what the listing amount was, the appraisal came in much higher and then the bank countered with my buyer.

this is the problem I ws having with Inside VAluation. I ended our relationship as a result. The subject would be listed 20% lower than any other sold or active listing with that GLA, age, style and other characteristic. I would value it according to comps and note the He** out of the order. They would come back with some comments telling me I could not be over that listing price....So, they can find somebody else to do the work. But, my other clients have not said much about it.

here are the comps, here is my value and here is how I got my value.....next.

yup. same story. I submitted the order the way they wanted it but noted that it was priced under value in hopes of multiple offers.

I won't do it. If they can provide better comps for me to change my value....sure I will. But, because they want me to? Nope. If the comps do not support the value they desire, I am not going to do it.

well that is their policy. I have it documented, I also have a policy of their expectations printed. so it is what it is. Frankly, it was priced under value. bozo listing agent anyway. I have only seen 2 so far like this. Hopefully will not see anymore. That was 15 orders ago anyway. Thanks for your input.

your opinion of the listing price is not a comment you should make on this BPO...unless the BPO specifically asks you to do that. the property owner can list the property at one dollar if they choose to...it's their decision.

your job is to value the property accurately at this point in time. you should not do a retrospective valuation or a review of another person's valuation (old BPO or appraisal) unless that is what your BPO order specifies and you are qualified to do that.

however, if you adjusted your value down to conform to the BPO company's requirements, THAT should be noted in the BPO comments, along with your opinion of the true market value, irrespective of the listing price.

in the BPO form, does it ask for "market value"? if so, they are in conflict with their own policies when the market value opinion exceeds the current list price. the current list price should have no influence on a market value opinion. that would be a type of predetermined value, which is unethical in any kind of valuation. you're on thin ice playing this BPO company's game.

Some years ago, before I dropped RRReview, I had QC insist I reduce the value to the list price based on the reasons many have outlined here. Finially, out of frustration, I added the following adjustment under comments. "BPO requestor directed adjustment -$20,000". They went absolutely balistic on me. Obviously, I fired them at that point.

When I perform an order on a property listed low as a short sale, I always make a comment, such as property appears listed below established MV to attract offers as a short sales. If property is listed and appears listed at appropriate market values, I always comment to that affect. And if it is overpriced, I comment on that. It is an opinion request I am performing after all.

I did state that the subject was priced below current market value. I also stated that the property was priced low to attract multiple offers. The property will get an appraisal which will state the price based from the current solds. I always value my bpo's like this. As I wrote, this one bpo company does not want the subject valued above list price. This is a company policy, not something I would follow from the other companies that I work with. The reason I wrote this topic was because I was not satisfied with the end result. oh and PS- this is 2nd time that I've seen a property priced so low, usually it's the other way around with an overpriced property.

Has anybody seen a pattern, here? The mills and banks are dictating values?........hmmmmmmmmmm.......makes me thing back to the days when they pulled the same game with appraisers..."If you don't hit our numbers, we won't use you any longer".

If any mill is stupid enough to email those guidelines, you refuse to complete, and they quit using your services because of this, send a copy to "the hill", in Washington.....I have a few of my bigger companies that have said, "if you're ever approached by one of our employees to adjust values to a target value, please contact management".

As for a company dictating that my value can't come in over the listed price........."Good Luck"....I've never been very fond of giving a "feel good price", and too old to change now.

I always appreciate when I am told the reason for the order, such as to determine distressed property value, or full market value. Those are completely different value opinions. CC is good at this and MSV always is good at asking for specific types of comps, ie., FMV or REO as available in the market place.

I like to add in my comments, this is an REO value based on REO comps which were requested by the client. You have to be flexible and give the client what they are looking for. That is not the same thing as hitting a number.

Using specific types of comps requested by the client, and not exceeding value of a listed price, are two different animals. The first one gives us direction on what the needs of the client are...REO, short sale, fair market, etc.(that makes sense). The second one is "dictating value". That's the one I have an issue with. In my area, most short sale listed prices are under valued. This can be a simple attempt by the listing agent to increase showing activity...."Buy and flip" can be another. My "opinion of value" has been, and always will be, based on current comps....If they have a "target number", good luck, as it ain't going to happen from this end.

I agree with you. My comment was in general, not counter to yours. MSV has that horrible function in their form.

Counter? I knew that......rarely, do we ever disagree...lol....My post was pointed at a "wannabe" that tends to post off and on. We've been hired to do a job and provide "our opinion"....not theirs. Comps dictate values.....and nothing else. When I see a "value variance", I will always state why I feel the listed price is too low or too high....I've found, that if I include that in the report, the first time, it stops a lot of QC issues. If I don't, that same statement will go in the report on the second trip......so, why wait?...."cut 'em off at the pass", is my motto....lol

also, the client's requests or guidelines for comping the subject property should be reasonable and based on accepted valuation practices. so, an experienced appraiser or agent should be able to make those decisions independently, based on information obtained about the property and the market.

we have all established here that we offer an opinion and try to do the right thing. The reason I started this topic was to vent my frustration at having to follow a unrealistic guideline set forth by the BPO company. Luckily I have only seen this scenario twice. I stated my points in the comment section of that order.
Candy. I hope I am not that wannabe that you were referring to.

One thing you can count on is these posts developing a life of their own.

My money lays odds that it was not you patrior.

no kidding. this should be called the vent board. now I am a wannabee. lol

agree.

Okay - So I have to give my 2cents... And then you can beat the crap out of me in the forum gauntlet like usual.

I had a client explain it to me like this,

'I don't want the value over the list price because it's already been on the market for sometime and we are not getting any offers so the list price obviously is not attracting the buyers. It is very doubtful that at this point, placing it as a higher amount will do anything for us.'

I always tell agents to look at the DOM. If you have a property that has a high DOM, then the list price isn't probably attractive enough and so placing the value on your BPO over that amount makes no sense.

Now if you have a low DOM, (less than 30 days) and your comparables can back up a higher price, then by all means, put big notes next such as '*** DOM for subject is low and what this indicates is that subject is undervalued at current list price based on Sold comp 2 and sold comp 3 as well as the Active comp 1.***'

I will tell you now, if you give a clear outline like the above to QC on how you came up with your value. It almost will never get rejected. (If they are watching the QC comments).

Okay, throw the tomatos now. I'm ready....

J~

That makes sense to me, but splat, we do not know if the proeprty is not getting offers (not avail. in mls), or if, splat, the property is even being shown since, splat, the occupant works nights/sleeps days, and splat, has 3 pits and 2 rottys. Ruff ruff. Spaghetti marinara for dinner?

Doin,

Well to counter that arguement, if the list price is attractive enough then people will overlook the dogs/missed appointments/scheduling issues to get in and make an offer.....


J~

Right, so having a higher value would make less sense in that scenario.

You're not the "wannabe".......maybe, I should define that.....In my opinion, a "wannabe" is a person that pretends to have experience, posts in the forum, with hopes of stirring up a thread. They're easy enough to spot.....

thanks for the clarification... who cares if someone is new or not. I thought the purpose was to share war stories, lol

It's hard to believe "clients" are this stupid and unethical. so, if the property is not selling, MANIPULATE THE APPRAISAL OR BPO?? this clown needs to see a psychologist.


"so the list price obviously is not attracting the buyers."

gosh, can anyone see the solution to this little problem, beside ordering a fraudulent valuation? LOL

Being new has nothing to do with it......sharing stories is one thing (that's what this forum is all about)...."telling stories is another"

okie doke, and what the heck does that have to do with an accurate market value opinion, in the form of a BPO or appraisal?

answer..ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!

In reality, there can be any number of reasons the property has not sold, completely unrelated to the current market value. Hmm, I wasn't aware that a list price lower than market value (usually considered a "good deal") is a bad thing!!

Yeah, its a weak argument.

Whoever is working at the bank's short sale department should be making the decision over how much weight to place on the home's List Price and DOM and how much to place on a honest BPO. That decision shouldn't be being made by the BPO agent. Or anyone at the BPO mill. It should raise a red flag to look at the order more closely but not actually determine the BPO value.

I've always wondered if the person at the bank who chooses which BPO mill to place the order with has any kind of bonus or commission at stake on whether the Short Sale goes through. It would be the same problem we had with Loan Officers choosing their own appraisers. That explanation would make a whole lot more sense to me.

it's not only weak, it's completely unethical.

In my 9 years, I have seen 1 sure fire way to keep a listing from selling. Agents comments-Dog in house, must have appt. to show. You lose a lot of agents righ there. Buyers are directed by the agent most often. I see your point, but on a Saturday when an agent has 17 houses they can show the buyer, certain ones are weeded out. It just happens. I hope other agents can back me up on this. It does not take much.

That is inflammatory and comes off as uninformed. The client is the client. They choose what product they want to order. The vendor takes the job or not. BPOs and appraisals are different beasts and can't be compared here. And BPOs are ordered, possibly on the same property by different clients for different purposes.

I will "always" refer this type of listing to the agents in my office that continue to ask me which companies should they sign up with to do BPO's.......lol

I'm with you.......I pass on these properties in a heartbeat...I can just see taking a client into "one of these kennels" and gettin' bit.....no way.....

ah yes, and management will sacrifice the bad, bad employee. when in fact it was "management" that encouraged or directed the employee to do so.

doin' bpose, are you saying the "clients" are never wrong, because they pay you money?? go ahead, surprise me.

doin' bpose, do you understand the similar ethical standards and statutory requirements licensed agents and appraisers are held to, and why they exist? go ahead, surprise me.

and do you understand the difference between inflammatory and critical? go ahead, surprise me.

The one I hated when I used to sell RE was "Listing agent needs to accompany".

That's one listing I would not show unless my buyer at the time saw the yard sign on their own and wanted to see it. I agree 100%, a list price can be maniuplated in a way of not being shown. Ever hear about the keys never being in the lockbox? Only other Realtors would understand.......

Right you are Brad. I say this to MSVJ with all respect, because I never realized people just don't understand what happens when you are in the field. Houses get swept under the rug for things as simple as a dog. Really it could be a tiny dog, but Fido is a major impediment to selling the home. It is not just dogs either as Brad pointed out. Agent comments--Don't let the cat out(Hee Hee Hee) Okay--Do I want to be chasing Felix around the neighborhood today? No--Next. If it says Vacant, leave card, go show' in the comments, then you have the best shot. MSVJ is right about a determined buyer, but often a buyer will see something else before they persist and pester the agent to set up a showing.
A listing only has so many oppotunities at sale since there are only so many buyers. If a seller creates obstacles to those showing they dramatically increase market time and reduce ALL marketing efforts. Once a listing becomes stale, it gets over looked for that reason.

I’m going on a rant here;
For starters, we BPO agents don’t determine values, the comps determine values. We merely do the math. If the BPO adjustments start to look like the calculations on NUMB3ERS, pick a different comp. It's an adjustment, not an algorithm.
For the sake of illustration, let’s take some of the adjustments out of the picture. We have 4 almost identical properties. The subject short sale at 150 and 3 comps at 200. AND we’re expected not to exceed the list price.???
Why not. It’s been on the market a zillion days so it must be priced high?? Let’s take a look at “on the market”. No sign, no lock box, pick up the key at the office, all showings between 1:30 and 2:00 PM Wednesday only, Please use caution when showing as the occupant has a communicable disease, cash buyers only (that last one just dusted off 90% of the market). Perhaps they listed a Boston property in a Florida MLS (yup that’s an exaggeration). Of course that assumes (the dangerous word) that the agent answers their phone at all.
But why would an agent not want to sell their listing? The mystery thickens or perhaps more accurately, anyone that can’t see through it is thick. The lister already has a buyer in their pocket. Perhaps it’s their friend, partner, (insert a conflict of interest party here). Stevie Wonder can see through this one. Hasn’t anyone else seen these “bargains” go back on the market almost immediately in the same condition for 100K more. Short sales are prime food for fraud. Every one of us has seen this. If you haven’t seen it, ask the aforementioned Stevie Wonder to point you in the right direction.
BUT…how did they get the independent BPO provider to concur with the value? 2 possibilities come to mind. The lister meets you at the property with comps and/or a sob story how this poor, elderly, disabled, recently widowed, veteran who was just laid off has to sell his house or the Taliban will kill his dog. Yup, I’m exaggerating again, but you get the point. That kind of sounds like a country western song doesn’t it?
The other possibility that comes to mind is the lister knows the BPO company will say “it can’t be valued above list price”. This ain’t rocket science, it’s fraud. Plain and simple fraud and I’m not about to become a party to defrauding a federally insured institution. I’m too old to be prom queen at the local jail.
WE don’t set the value, the seller doesn’t set the value, the BPO requestor doesn’t set the value. THE COMPS SET THE VALUE.
End of rant!

I don't want to pour water on the rant, but if it were as simple as comps and adjustments, we'd've (we would have) been zillowed and truliaed long ago. There is reason the agent is involved. We possess market specific knowledge that is not captured in statistics. And we have cameras that can show current condition.

THE COMPS SET THE VALUE........and, how long have I been sayin' this?.......great post...thank you.....

I agree with your statement when combined with current comps.......as for the camera thing......I'm usually not there long enough to do an "in depth" exterior inspection... the owners are getting much more aggressive, right along with the nosey neighbors....I've seen a big change, in the last few years. My "flak jacket" is only good for so many trips.......lol

I agree with both of you-just don't want to define myself as a function. If x then y. There is a little relativism in the process.

Roger that on the hostility on site.

Zillow and trulia don't supply accurate information and we all know that. I've been questioned as to why I left out what zillow picked as a comp 4 blocks away. Because it was direct lake front, superior condition, larger and mine was a shanty. The BPO requesters know this. That's just another house, not a comp. Perhaps I should have been more specific and stated chosing appropriate comps. But if they're not appropriate comps they're not comps at all, just another house. Choose the right comps and the numbers will walk you there. Market specific knowledge will factor in, but market conditions should impact all comps and the subject equally. Obviously adjusting at x% a month from sale date in a declining or increasing (remember back when). I'm also considering that one had interior access to the subject to rate condition. But this post wasn't about how to do a BPO, it was about value can't exceed list price.
Regarding all the QC issues folks gripe about consider this; 10-15 years ago there were very few agents performing BPO and a QC kickback was almost unheard of. Both sides were highly experienced. Now everyone with a license is jumping aboard. Quality suffered so more QC was instituted. In many instances the QC weren't fully trained. We had Seveie Wonder leading Ray Charles. So they computerized QC requiring everything fit into their preselected box. They ignored the first rule in making something foolproof...Don't hire fools. The 80/20 rule...20% of us that know the industry are dancing with QC because 80% have no idea what they're doing. I don't really have an issue with that, it keeps the mills from pestering me so I can concentrate on the listing outfits.
End of Rant 2

Okay... Put the tomato's down first before I continue.....


Look, you know and I know that there is a huge gap between what a house is worth and what the house's value is.

Value is determined by comps based on what the house will sell for currently.
Worth is determined by other things (such as a delusional buyer)

So when I have an agent that calls and the first thing they say to me is 'I can't find any comps in the subjects price range'. A tiny red flag slides up for me. I find sometimes agents pigeon hole properties into a value bracketing range because they believe the house is 'Worth' that much. And it probably is. Do I think those gorgeous houses in FL are only worth 65,000? No. But is that all people are paying for them now. Hell ya. And they baulk at that.

So when a client comes back to me and says 'The as-is price shouldn't be higher than the listing price unless there is a damn good reason' I agree.

Here is what I consider a damn good reason:

A. The house just barely listed under 30 days ago and all comps point to the house list price being low balled to pull buyer interest.
B. The house is listed but has in the agent remarks 'Do not show until _____future date.
C. The entire town is flooded and no one can get in to view this one single house that was saved from the disaster which is currently sitting on top of the only hill for 20 miles.

Okay... I've said my peace. You guys can resume to give me the hell I deserve for being on the dark side.

J~

I love your comments, keep writing.

As I stated earlier in this thread, it is flat out wrong to have a predetermined value of a property and anyone who evaluates real estate for a living will agree with that. That is appraisal 101, pure and simple.

Therefore while a subject property's list price should be taken into consideration, it may or may not tell the full story as to what is going on. I could get into the semantics of value vs. cost, which I would prefer to avoid.

If I document my BPO and my concluded value, and the mill has a problem with that, then it becomes their problem. I find that most of these issues are from drive-by BPOs, thus if their is a value difference between my opinion of value and the list price I will conclude that....

"BPO agent highly recommends an interior inspection of this home to determine if the interior condition of this property is in inferior to its exterior appearance to warrant its current distressed sale list price."

I think MSVJ's comments demonstrate how unaware the typical BPO company employee is regarding fraud in short sales. Even if the short sale propery has been listed for months it doesnt mean the listing realor in answering the phone..or if he does that he isnt telling everyone who calls that is under contract, nightmare sale with multiple loans/liens. The listing agent has the buyer, an acquaintance of the seller.. yada yada. Not uncommon to have realtors in my area work with investors who buy the short sale with an agreement to lease the property back to the owner or resale it to them and they dont even move out of the property to make it happen.
when we complete a BPO and the value is greater that the list price; maybe the seller should consider one of those possibilities. We gain nothing from valuing the property above list; we are only attempting to determine value.

I think much of the need for this argument disappears when the client explains what type of value he desrires to obtain. Most of us agree clients are allowed to request different values.

List agent is told by seller. I need to be out of here in 45 days. LP 1
List agent is told by seller..I am not in a hurry, I want to get the highest amount and I don't care about market time. LP 2.

Did you really expect anybody to answer this?

Oh no...........FISH ON....SET YOUR DRAG!

I'm not making fun of your post.....You just have to realize how and why this person posts.

I got hooked?

Dangit....carry on and ignore me.

That is why it is hard to argue with those less knowledgeable about the aspects of the business that we experience day in day out. We can explain our points of view until we are blue in the face, but unless they have been "out there" going through the same experiences as us; they will rationalize an argument without field experience to back that argument up.

That is why I referred to MSVJ as not being a "peer" last week, never meaning it to be demeaning nor insulting. Just stating my opinion based on actual experience as being a Realtor going through the ropes that we contend with on a daily basis.

unaware BPO company employee... How quaint.

I'm very aware of the fraud. I am also however very aware that clients are using most BPO's in these matters to get the short sale approved and the inventory off the market. The more inventory they move off the market, the quicker the pricing may stabalize as the inventory amount goes down.

Just something to think about the next time you question what a client is looking for.

J~

[quote=MSVJ~] ... I am also however very aware that clients are using most BPO's in these matters to get the short sale approved and the inventory off the market. The more inventory they move off the market, the quicker the pricing may stabalize as the inventory amount goes down ...

J~ [/quote]


But it begs the question why do they even need the BPO then? Or why doesn't the bank want a honest BPO and then examine the List Price and DOM and decide for themselves what they want to let it go for?

I have to think somewhere someone along the line is being told that this is a good BPO and it justifies the price the bank is letting it go for. Maybe its servicers fooling the investors. Maybe its the banks fooling their shareholders. And maybe this is the best solution for the Real Estate Market as a whole but someone is being lied to here.

The BPO is just part of the process. After the BPO is done they then order a Valuation between the prior appraisal for o/a and the BPO and then someone sits down and goes over both along with a bunch of secondary data that can support/not support the BPO value and comes back with a new figure based on all that info as to whether or not it's in the clients best interest to let the property go low and lose some money rather than lose more 3-6 months down the road based on the continuing trends of the market.

Clients are not just looking at the value you give on the BPO. They look at the data such as current list values/Sold values/DOM/Market Conditions/Decline Rate/Occupancy Rate/Employement Rate. Then they take all that information and come up with a forcast of what the market may be doing in 90-120 days and if it's worth it to keep on to the property or take the offer they've been handed.

Thats the advantages a BPO has over an appraisal. It's much easier to forcast trends in the market with a BPO according to most clients I've ever worked for.


J~

[quote=MSVJ~] ...Just something to think about the next time you question what a client is looking for.

Again, basic misconception here on behalf of BPO company employee. We complete a BPO to determine our opinion of value. We do not complete a BPO to determine a value the CLIENT is looking for..we determine the value of the property.

Certainly the seller is responsible for determining, given the valuations of the property to what extent they will accept an offer below that value or combination of values. To artificlly deflate the value of the property to a number the "client" is looking for would be fraud.

Several companies do ask for a 30 v 90 day value and a quick sale value. We dont control which one of these they choose to accept and utilize to determine the acceptable short sale price..they do. That's perfectly legite.

The REO process and price setting is very similar. A variety of BPO's and appraisals over time together with the goals of the seller ( 30 day sell v 90 day sell, etc is considered together to determine a pricing strategy. Those of us who work REO participate in that process with every sale.

We understand the process.

lol...

The point that was being demonstrated is that for most clients that I've worked with... They don't even look at your value anyways so its a moot point.

J~

I'm very aware of the fraud. I am also however very aware that clients are using most BPO's in these matters to get the short sale approved and the inventory off the market. The more inventory they move off the market, the quicker the pricing may stabalize as the inventory amount goes down.

So MSVJ. You are saying that undervaluing properties by using bogus list comp short sales is what we should be doing? - just to "get the short sale approved and the inventory off the market." Do you want a real opinion of value or something that will just work to get the short sale pushed through? I can't believe what I'm hearing - I don't post much, but had to chime in on this one!

Well with BPOs on Short Sales they shouldn't because in many cases these values are worthless because of the pressure that starts with the clients and works it way down to the agents to meet the List price.

But even if they don't look at the value they obviously care about what that value is or they wouldn't try to influence it would they?

Right, so what if the subject property is listed as a short sale? The BPO value can not be higher than it's current bogus short sale list price? What stops a short sale listing agent from listing their property extremely low to make a deal happen?

<--- Sitting back with popcorn in one hand and a diet coke in the other.

I'll leave it at that and sit back and wait for MSVJ's repsonse. I am thinking Milk Dud's or maybe even some Snowcaps this time.

I just dealt with a similar situation with my value coming in exact with the previous BPO, but both values were much higher than the listing price. Im very curious to see both sides of this.

MSVJ Quote 1: today at 12:48
I am also however very aware that clients are using most BPO's in these matters to get the short sale approved and the inventory off the market. The more inventory they move off the market, the quicker the pricing may stabalize as the inventory amount goes down.
MSVJ Quote 2: 47 minutes ago
The point that was being demonstrated is that for most clients that I've worked with... They don't even look at your value anyways so its a moot point.

MSVJ seems confused..

Not confused. They use the BPO not for the value but for the market data. I explained that already if you had been reading.

But hell, I'm just the one the client talks to and informs of what they are looking for and the purpose of their reports. Why listen to me when you want to know the reasons behind it. Probably better to listen to yourself since you have hands on knowledge of what the client is asking for and what they want. Not being your 'Peer' I can only give you the information regarding what is being asked of you to provide. And heaven forbid that not cause some huge debate on how unaware the normal company employee is.

Back to saving my breath to cool my porridge since that seems to be the best course of action being surrounded by deaf ears.

J~

The message there is for the agents, self included, to market themselves by focusing on providing detailed comments that address those concerns mentioned by J. If this becomes a focus, it will stop the downward pressure on BPO fees. If we provide irreplaceable and invaluable insight into the market conditions, we will establish our value and have more control over our fees.

I have no doubt you are absolutely right about this. My question is if they don't look at the price then why all the fuss about not exceeding the SS list price.

Just remember, no one asked you to be here.

Doing this all over again, eh Brad? Why are comments like that necessary? I don't think anybody asked any of us to be here, did they? I wasn't invited, were you? NOt certain why you do it, but when you take issue with what MSVJ says, you take it personal....Personally, I like hearing her points. Others do as well as you saw when this happened a couple of weeks back. Like I said last time, plese remember that you are not speaking for all of us.

Simple....The disrespect for other agents is intolerable. We are the Realtors who make up this MB. We are here to share our views and experiences with one another. If an employee of a mill wants to join, fine. No worries! However I am not going to stand back and keep quiet if I feel a non-Realtor with ZERO sales and "hands on" evaluation experience is out of line. So call me unreasonable if you want, but that just the way it is for me......

I saw nothing disrespectful until I read your post....Carry this on without me.

I don't see disrepect from her. She is defending a point she made, claiming STEW and others were not listening to her inside the beltway information. How is that disrespectful?

Saying that we are "deaf ears". What do we know, we only visit the property, become experts in our market, etc. I feel its talking "down" to us.

I think you need to read it again, she was speaking to those who disagree with her. Deaf ears is a phrase, like tall spirits, eyes bigger than his stomach, long in the tooth, etc. It is not talking down.

You might disagree with her, I happen to think it is smart to listen to what she has to say. You don't have it to take it as gospel, since she is one of many in her field, but at least it's a glimpse into the inner workings of a mill and the client.

I must be deaf because I didn't "hear" any explanation of the points I brought up. But at this point it's pretty obvious who's worth "listening" to and who's not. I'm done with it...

I guess this is where we agree to disagree. I feel if one becomes truly confident in their abilities to evaluate homes, then everything else should come into place. Meaning if you can truly defend your value, then everything else should be secondary.

No problem regarding my participation on the MB. I see what it is now. It’s not for Realtors to share info about the REO/BPO market. It goes much deeper than that. It’s more about not wanting to "upset" someone who may be in a position to give you more business. That is not a concern of mine, so oh well..........

Hasta luego MB. (Not adios para siempre)

Let me understand this. I post about the role we have in REO sales to explain to her that we understand the type of decision process that sellers go thru in short sales and her response is

LOL

they dont even look at your values

And you don't find that disrespecful? Who are you kidding.


Personally I have relationships with many insiders and I dont find her information particulary accurate or informative.

It was no more disrespectful than this statement. For the record, I don't think this is disrespectful.

I must say Brad may have a point. Whenever MSVJ gets criticized, it seems that some come immediately to her rescue. Could that be for ulterior motives? I respect someone who says what they say because it’s what they believe rather than wanting something out of it in return.

I admit Brad might have fallen of the handle, but I also think he's rather knowledgeable from the posts I have read from him concerning our business.

In my case, I am anonymous to the board, with a couple of exceptions. MSVJ is not one of the exceptions.

I am one that comes to her rescue. I am also one that has been real vocal about the displeasure I have doing their orders as well. They are not my favorite client, I have been pretty vocal about that...not trying to "position" myself by any means. I would not say the things I say on the Main Street thread if that were the case.
I also think that Brad is very knowledgable. I said as much last week when he questioned MSVJ about her qualifications for being onboard here. Sorry, just because I defend somebody and disagree with somedbody else, it does not mean I have an ulterior motive. On the flip side, maybe Brad would not be so quick to continually show MSVJ the door if she WERE one of his clients....I doubt it.

Wow... what happened to being open minded, not taking everything as gospel....Aren't these just opinions. Use what is useful and ignore the rest. I was told a while back, before you say something to someone/anyone, with in intention of trying to help/or correct, are you really trying to help or, are you just trying to make yourself fell/look better/smarter/or whatever. Remember we have 2 ears and 1 mouth, it is hard sometimes (actually, most of the time), but use them accordingly.

If there's been any suckin' up in this thread, I haven't seen it. I could point you all to an old thead where that was a common occurence. At times I agree with MSVJ and at times I don't. Have I found her posts offensive?....not really....at times, maybe a wee bit harsh.....Let's face it...this thread is just a little bit better than that one we had last week....you know the one.....where a few of us got PM's asking "why are we hiding behind the forum?".

Here's the down side to this thread. Assuming we have other companies that come in here and check out this forum, why in the world would they post, knowing there's a good chance they'll be attacked?

I, for one, would like to see more participate. If they're being up front and honest, hopefully I can learn something... The end result should be completing orders faster and fewer QC issues.....It's always nice to see the other sides point of view. If I can't come to a "meeting of the minds", I move onto another company....too many to select from.....really not into ridin' a dead horse.......just my two cents

Here's my problem with MSVJ~ in general. She comes here and offers a point of view which may be consistent with how MSV conducts business; however, in no way, shape or form, does she have the authority to opine as to what other mills want or what they are looking for. I, personally found her tone last week especially bitter over something, that in the scheme of things, was about how a W-9 did or did not get uploaded to the MSV website. How does she know? That's not her job, she's in QC. That didn't stop her from opining as to the poster's capabilities. There's being helpful and then there's spreading oil on a fire. She chose to spread the oil.

She may have industry experience but she no longer works for FARVV, things change. She hasn't worked for IAS (so far as I can tell) and their take on the market is certainly markedly different than hers (as evidenced by their QC and their report forms). And the list could go on. The point being that each company does things differently with a different expectation from their agents. That tends to get glossed over in MSVJ~ posts.

In this thread I found it incredibly disheartening to find out that when I work hard to arrive at an accurate value for a short sale property that my value doesn't merit review because they (the client) are looking for market data. What a slap in the face, especially in light of the 3 interior BPOs I've just completed for MSV where I searched hard and long to find homes in like condition (2 out of 3 were marijuana grow houses!!! Red tagged by the County!!!). You want market analysis, I can give you market analysis. It is my understanding that when I do a BPO I am providing a VALUE of the Subject backed by comparables in the immediate community, but she just said that's not true. Don't let CC hear that, they would be all over her in a heartbeat. Don't let AssetVal hear that, their client(s) will be all over you in a heart beat.

MSVJ~ is welcome to continue to post but her interjection into what other companies and what their QC teams are looking for should be taken with a grain of salt. MSV is not the gospel of the industry, I suspect that no one company is.

CanDo

"Take it with a grain of salt"......that pretty much covers it.....with any post....you take some.....you leave some.

The bottom line is simple....it's not the banks opinion, it's not the mill's opinion, IT'S MY OPINION. period....I could care less at what the bank looks at....the guidelines are in the order. If I can't fulfill that portion, I just pass it back to them.....The day will never come that I'll complete an order when told I can't exceed the listed value...that order makes it to the round file.

It strikes me that a few folks will take anything MSVJ says and place it under a microscope, dissect it and quite often paint it to be something that it isn't. I have not heard MSVJ try to represent other companies, I have not gotten that tone from any of her posts. Nor did I think she was "especially bitter" last week over the W9 issue that somehow hijacked the thread we were in the middle of. She make a comment about a carrier pigeon...big deal. ARe we so sensitive that we look at a comment like that and consider it bitter? When she says her comments "are falling on deaf ears", we really consider that a personal insult? LOL, are you kidding me? That saying is probbly 100 years old. This is just a case of not wanting somebody here from the "other side" that may say things you do not agree with. If they say things that are not agreeable, they ar not allowed the same latitude to joke that you would allow others. That is my take.
Personally, I like hearing thoughts and suggestions from the other side. NO, that does not mean I have some financial motives and am posturing....that was a silly suggestion. Just because one sticks up for another it does not necessarily mean they are posturing. I fully agree with Candy that others would possibly join in and lurk here. But, they can probably see that others do not want "outsiders" here unless they walk, talk and think like they do.

I have to agree with SMG 100%.

I, personally, happen to enjoy reading and learning everyone's point of view in this forum. And I have alot of respect for someone, anyone ( with any company ) that acknowledges the fact that agents have questions and goes out of their way to answer as many as possible, as quickly as possible. I do alot of reading to learn, everyday. I find that this forum has alot of answers. It doesnt matter if it is a brand new real estate person or a vet. There are things to learn and the market is continuously changing, therefore learning is never a dead end.

If I were to start taking a difference of opinion personally, I dont think I would have the right to question anyones right for being here (invited or not). I would only have figure out if I belong here. At that point, there are only two choices and it isnt rocket science.

It makes it interesting, to say the least, when there are several opinions that collide!!! Bring out the popcorn and Diet Coke!!

I think we lost track somewhere.

The original thread was regarding short sale prices and the listing value for 'some' clients having to be below that.

I gave some insight into what my clients request and why. It can be taken or left as you so choose. As Cando says, my word is not gospel just like no one here has an ultimate say of what is right or wrong. I can only give insight into the clients that I have worked with in this industry. The same as all of you. I have clients that will allow values to be over list price. They are the ones that usually request FMV values. The ones that request an REO value, they usually do not want the value to come in over list price unless there is a defined reason why.

If you have a subject that has been on the market for 700 days and was listed at 200K and is now at 72,000 and still has not sold. The last price change was over 90 days ago and still not under contract. Should you price it at 150K?...probably not. Even if the comps can support it, there is something that is keeping that property from selling. And maybe it is just the fact that it is a short sale, but that should be factored in to your value. Buyers will not pay as much for a short sale due to the aggravation that goes along with it. (You guys have beaten this into my head enough times over the years.)

All I can do is give you some insight; you take it or leave it as you wish. In return, I do take insight from you and I try to help train my QC and Valuation staff accordingly. The point of me being on this board is to learn more about your side as well as to try to help you see a little bit of my world with more clarity.

J~

P.S. Yes, every so often like everyone else, I am sarcastic and things like 100 year old phrases and carrier pigeon’s get thrown into my wording. Solar flares might also be mentioned on occasion. Just depending on the day. Life’s to short not to have a bit of a joke here and there. Try not to take everything I say too seriously. After all, you don't have to be crazy to work for a mill... but it helps pass the hours.

You mean your not omnipotent!?!?!?!?!?!?
Darn, Just when I thought I had a map to mecca.
I for one (Please Note I DO NOT WORK FOR ANY MILLS) appreciate all the different opinions. Even when I know they are wrong

Don't forget the tomatoes. Splat. insert winky emoticon here.
response to MSVJ.

wazzup? was that diet caffeine free diet coke?

Good thread - went off topic - but good thread - just remember not to make it or take it personal, try proof reading it at least once.

Now - if I get accept a bpo - I give a bpo in return. If I am asked for market condition report - I'll ask how much it pays because I have never been asked for one yet.

Diverse opinions are great and I do request that we do offer our guests from our clients to participate because I know that as professionals and business minded individuals, their value will only add to ours / the 'collective's'.

I also agree to always note any request to deviate from your calculated opinion of price on a bpo - let the chips fall where they may - do it right or not at all.

here is an example. Today I did another interior of a complete remodel short-sale condo in a low-moderately priced building. With BPO company XYZ who likes the value to be around list price. As I walk out the door the listing agent shoves papers at me and says "here is the contract" well, it is for 50,000 less then the list price. yes, low-ball offer, big DOM . It is a very nice upgraded unit. I am going to ignore what he told me, I am not supposed to know, and follow the sales comps in that building. Now he should have been like the other agent for my last interior in that building and lowered the list price. Why let it sit so long at a higher list with a long DOM?

Good Point. Here's one for the flip side.

We wrote on a short sale well off the, completely unrealistic, list price. Agent (who has only this listing and 4 transactions in the past 12 months) advised that it would not be accepted nor presented to the bank because they have a BPO that is much higher. In this case it should not have been anywhere close to the BPO price.

I later found out that this agent is the one who did the BPO.

He does not know we check out the agents we work with. He said he has done a LOT of Short Sales (I guess the 4 in the past year he was referring to which must have all been short sales) and that our offer was unreasonable.

Guess all that experience he has makes him the expert. I would rather have someone who do these all the time (Like many that post here) doing the BPO. Not an agent who needs to make a car payment. It colors the judgment IMHO.

I was tempted to tell him that since we do REO we will just double side it when it gets foreclosed and he loses the listing. But I resisted.

I thought I was the only one who did this! As soon as an agent starts disputing what my instructions are based upon their experience, I check up on them. Rarely, if ever, are they a consistent producer.

Its not his call to lower the price. The client decides that...not up to the agent to raise or lower the price.

what would you do smg? as the listing agent would you sit DOM 250 on a high price and not recommend a price change?

Something I thought about later was that perhaps he is just so diligent that he only does one property at a time. 4 short sales in a year @ 90 days each is a pretty good average. Or it could just be a case of "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while."

We check out all the agents because here in FL we have a lot of people practicing RE without a licence. They even send out field investigators to try and find them. First check is license and complaints, second is how much have they done in the trailing 12 months.

Of course I would recommend it. If it was unreasonably priced, if the seller did not wat to lower and it had no chances lof selling, I would walk. I was just saying that you were wondering why the agent didnt lower it.... it ain't his call.

sure, they're very simple questions. but I guess it's expecting too much to get honest answers to questions about client and agent ethics. unfortunately, ethics are secondary in this industry.

Trying to rile me up on a Sunday night.

1 no-Boo!

2a yes-loaded question though, which state?

2b Duh, of course, I do-Honey, I'm pregant. (that would surprise me)

3 yes, but not sure why you asked-I put the toilet seat down.

Surprise!

I would like to remind all licensed forum participants that if a client violates the law, the client is WRONG, plain and simple, and a licensed agent must not cooperate with those actions. state licensure ensures that the agent has some knowledge of real estate law, and is personally accountable for acting in compliance with those standards. the law trumps any client requirements or policies where a conflict or potential conflict exists.

Shanna

Welcome to Real Estate 101A........like we didn't know..........If you're fishin', based on your last few posts, you got a few nibbles, and no bites.......consider changin' your bait.

There is an excellent article posted under a different thread about SHORT SALE FLOPPING that would make me ask for a BPO to be reassigned instead of underpricing it.

Really as I said previously, if you as the agent believes it is underpriced listing and you have a great reason why that you have put on the report in writing. Call the Mill and talk to them about it. (Ask for a QC'r not just regular support lines though or you might not get someone who can pop it through the system for you and you don't want it kicked back after another person looks over it).

Theres always exceptions to the rule so setting a threshold to come in under the listing price just negates agents from over valuing it without a good reason why.

J~

Shana, if that's the case then not a single person should ever work with FNMA, BofA, Wells, Chase, etc they violate ethics and federal law all of the time. Yet our local boards, NAR, and HUD DO NOTHING!!!! Ethics? LOL.

that is exactly the problem...and too many licensed agents are willing to play the game. I see it every day in this business, and many agents consider these tactics "business as usual." personally, I've never gone down that road. take a look at your state real estate commission's website, where disciplinary action is listed. it's shocking how many agents go astray from the law.

MSVJ, the relevant point here, is that setting a "threshhold" is a completely illegitimate tactic, and a pre-determined value. using this tactic, the threshold setter is probably performing a valuation or appraisal (subject to USPAP), which may be illegal under state law. anyone in this business dealing with or reviewing BPO's and appraisals should be licensed, and know the applicable statutes governing them, such as USPAP. If the BPO companies were subject to USPAP, for example, they would not be so cavalier about manipulating valuations. DON'T go down that road!

"Licensed since 1492"

Candyman, is 1492 your original licensing date with DRE, or is this a misrepresentation...and I might add, a potential violation of California state law? Perhaps the DRE would be interested in knowing that you are posting false information about your licensure on a public forum? I'm completely serious.

I found it:

Last Name : Man
First Name Candy : Candy
City : Everywhere
First licenses : Oct 12, 1492

It's right there on the CRE website

Shanna

At least you're staying consistant...
"Changing boats in mid-river". That's been your pattern as long as I can remember. Your "surprise me" posts were staged for argument, and nothing else....these were good examples of your previous posts. You might want to take some time and go back and read some of your prior posts....say, like about a year....At that time, ethics was a joke to you.....today, you're making a 180 degree turn....what's up with that....a new you?

As for your DRE statement, you're coming up short AGAIN on knowledge....just part of your "changing boats" pattern.

Based on your various posts, I've listed my opinions and this is not to be construed as a personal attack.

1. You've stated that you're a broker with over 20 years of experience. "You don't speak the language of a seasoned broker. Your posts have more of an appearance of a student researching various threads, then posting your opinion."

2. I could be wrong on this one, but, didn't our forum mod ask for you to ID yourself a while back? "Right after that, you kinda disappeared off the radar. What's up with that?...have a license issue?"

3. Most of the advice you've given in the past was of a negative nature and very little merit. "My biggest fear was a newbie (new agent) reading your posts, then taking that information and running with it."

4. How many of your posts have been of a positive contribution to the forum? "In my opinion, there were few, if any. Your posts were designed more to incite, rather than contribute."

5. Have you found, since coming back on the radar, few (if any) respond to your posts? "Could it be you've been found out?"

Shanna, I could be totally off base on my opinions, so SURPRISE ME.......again, this is not a personal attack. These opinions were based on your prior posts.

City: Everywhere........Oh man, now everybody knows I have a "blanket license".

CRE website....can also be found on CRS website........lol

1492? Christopher Columbus? Mayflower Realty? It's a joke, a flippin joke, even when quoted out of context. Even Governer Squashanickle would see that. But why not take your complaint to the DRE. They'll have two jokes to laugh at, the one described above and you.

You flat out nailed it dude.

JackREO

It's a known fact, that when a ship starts sinkin', the little varmints will cling to anything to stay afloat....lol

Back on topic.....

I got an order today on an attached property (duet). I have the sold comps, but, only one listing comp within 5 miles of subject. This should have been a lay down. It's a short sale and priced right......just my luck.

let me enlighten you once again, Candyman, knowingly posting false information about anyone's license status is a big NO NO, joke or otherwise, and if the State learns of it, they might just send you a cease and decist order. from that point on, you'll be under their microsope. the attitude in this industry never ceases to amaze me.

Do we have a means on this forum of filtering people out who have nothing to offer? Many forums have a "kill file" or a filter that you can use to eliminate irritants like this one. Anybody?

Eliminate irritants as in a flea bomb? or bee spray?

Im thinking in this case it might be more like a re-curring fungus.. not to sure, wish I could be more helpful smg. Sorry

Your lack of real estate knowledge just continues to amaze me. Let me see if I can make this simple enough for you to understand....are you ready, now?

In my opinion, you have never had a real estate license in your entire life....period.....your posts are so full of holes. Now, that would be funny if you were correct with your assumption of DRE (which you aren't even close). Just for the sake of argument let's say you don't have a license and have been giving real estate advice in the forum....would you care to follow up on that.........hmmmmmmmmm?

I stated this a long time ago......"debating would be unfair to you, as you have no working knowledge......at least, as far as I can see in your posts. It would be like me running a race against a one legged man".

My last post put you to a challenge. I even used your tag line of "surprise me".....and your response was???????. Are you getting the point?. There's no wind in your sails.....no meat with your potatoes.

All I've ever seen, from your side of the table, is you like to troll various threads, pick out your mark, post something to incite, and then, you're off to the races.

I consider your DRE comment equal to the PM's I was receiving a few weeks ago from a BPO mill......"why are your hiding in the forum?"....

To quote my hero, WCF (not to be mixed up with WTF), W. C. Fields.......

......."Go away kid, you bother me".......

No apologies necessary. I belong to a few different forums and there is always one or two people who serve no purpose, offer nothing and just annoy everybody. It is plainly obvious that the nonsense this person is posting is just being posted for "annoyance sake". Nobody takes her seriously....she is just clutter. Was hoping I could filter her....

yet you've never been able to seriously challenge any of the information and opinions in my posts, and you continue to respond to my posts with obvious angst and frustration. that says volumes. LOL

if you don't think I respond like a "seasoned broker", it's because I have more knowledge and a consistent focus on ethics, which is rare in this business. I regularly correct "seasoned brokers" on any number of real estate issues. Ignorance is bliss.

What a crock......try again.....

Back on topic........

Recently, I've gotten lucky with short sale BPO's. I'm not sure if agents are paying more attention to values, or are just getting tired of loosing the sale....either way works for me......I had an interior today that was right on the money.... problem is only one listing comp. And, to top it off, MLS has decided to work on their site tonight..they could at least wait til I hit the sack....usually 3 a.m.....lol

I got it smg... Preperation H should do the job. Good luck!

talk about worthless posts that add NOTHING of value to the forum. this one is par for the course.

Well, I have caved. I am guilty. Doin' Bpose has been weak. I've taken a bribe. I went to shoot pics for an interior short sale bpo order. Owner was baking cookies. I left with my pictures and 2 chocolate chip cookies. Should I disclose this? Which page of my professional standards have I trampled with my moment of weakness? Can my value be trusted?????

Doin',
Sounds like you have come to the dark side as they have cookies.
Do you think you will get W-9d on them?

SMG,
Sounds like Shanna forgot that you never bring a knife to a gun fight. In the battle of wits she seems to be unarmed.

May the Swartz be with you.

In interests of full disclosure, I have included a picture of the cookies in the bpo report.

What knife?.........What wit?........Sonofagun........must have slept through that post.

Unarmed?.......Would that be the same as "having no knowledge"?

In the interest of full disclosure and because I am afraid Shana will report me to the real estate commission, I have changed by sig line from "twelve years REO experience" to "thirteen years REO experience" since another year has passed us by.

brilliant!