What does 'Ethics' mean to you - Where do 'Ethics' originate from?

I am wondering that since we talk about ethics if we really understand them?

I would like to keep this a REALTOR only discussion if possible - so please post an 'r' if you are a REALTOR.

As you know - REALTORS have a quadrennial ethics training requirement - so if you are not a REALTOR you probably have not had the training so please, if you must post let us know you are not a REALTOR.

I am a Realtor (starting in to year 13 next month).

As such there is an obligation to abide by the NAR Code of Ethics (including keeping up with the changes made each year). The code includes the Standards of Practice which helps in defining compliance. To large degree, but not entirely, these requirements are patterned after legal requirements.

I also see ethics as a broader issue of treating each other fairly, known classically as the "Golden Rule".

I'd say the golden rule. "Do not do onto others that which you would not have them do on to you."
The changes that are made to bring the COE current are always interesting. I just received the 2009 copy of the COE, SOP 1-15 is new.

I am a Realtor.

In addition to our code of ethics a personal view I take is that I want to be proud of the way I conduct myself and my business 100 percent of the time. I never want to later be embarrassed at a party when I run into someone from the industry who I treated poorly or unfairly. I have been a Realtor for 5 solid years now and I want to develop a reputation in my market for being fair, ethical, friendly AND very good at my job. I don't want to be one of those agents whose offers get put at the bottom of the round-file because I am a total B*^%H. We have all worked with those total lunatics before- the ones that scream and yell at the drop of a hat- the ones that people laugh at behind their back because they do it so shamelessly.

I came to a crossroads in my business a couple years ago when I realized that my interest in this business is not just to sell homes but to develop relationships. I take great pride in the relationships I develop with (some) of my clients, and I think my ethics contribute to that benefit.

I am a Realtor too.

As I see it, my integrity is all I really have in this life -- when all else is stripped away. Integrity is the sum total of all the aspects of my character. And whatever that amount is, my ethics -- which I would define as the fairness and honesty with which I treat other people -- is the outward manifestation of that integrity.

I am solidly all for following the COE, and I'm glad NAR requires CE in this . . . The number of unethical people in our profession (and I'll speak only for the town in which I live) frustrates me on a regular basis.

We have seen people address our COE, several times.

Have you looked back through the years and actually looked at all the changes to our COE?

I would think ethics would remain unchanged as their source has - but that is not so. The past decade it has been unbelievable - and I am not sure if we are not changing our ethics to meet the way we do business rather then the other way around.

I equate ethics and morality - with morality being the bases for ethics.

so, for you Realtors, how do you handle a situation when a client instruction conflicts with the Realtor COE? have you ever had this kind of situation? If you have a listing agreement with a client, aren't you duty bound to follow the client's lawful instructions, even though they may conflict with the Realtor COE?

Sounds like a good idea for you to start an entirely different thread with - and perhaps you could be more specific - by stating specifically what you are concerned about.

I will not accept instructions from a client that violate Code of Ethics (and I will tell them that is why!).

Yes, to a certain degree. For example, when a client does not want the status changed in the MLS from "active" to "pending", which could cause the agent to have to pay a $100 fine. If I was to be fined, I'd insist that the seller has to pay it, but I would follow his instructions, which would be against our MLS rules and the COE.

really? what if you stood to lose your best REO client by not complying, and would lose most of your listing income. the client's request or demand is legal, but not consistent with the Realtor COE.

Not all my eggs are in one basket so if I ever loose a client over this I will move on with others.

12 years in the business, over 10 doing REO (and the last couple REO only) I've never had a request from a client to violate COE.

You will also see in an earlier post on this thread that I had noted where much of the COE is based on what is legal and supported by the Standards of Practice to gauge the performance.

I lost my respect for the COE when it was changed to make some of my websites unethical. I followed all the rules, spent a lot of time and money and they changed the rules after the fact, on the advice of my competition, to give my competition the advantage.

So much for ethics.

^^^

that's a good point. when private ethical codes are imposed, they tend to be unnecessarily restrictive. personally, I'm fine complying with state law, and not interested in answering to some private association's rules.

the point about NAR and the state and local associations is that most agents are FORCED to join and comply with the COE, simply because their broker is a member, per NAR rules. so, it's really not a voluntary choice, and certainly not an open and competitive environment.

You'll have to include almost every professional association in this category (ABA, AMA, NABA, NBA etc.) and most members don't care, because they have more important things to consider.
No one is forced to comply with the REALTOR COE, however, anybody who as a member or non-member wants to impose their own interpretations, is obviously having too much time on their hands to "re-invent the wheel" IMO.

I consider it to be a choice, and a good one at that!

I know of no state that requires such membership to obtain a real estate license so the choice is the broker you sign up with. If you don't want to belong to the professional associations representing the real estate busines then ask a non-member broker to sponsor you!

I consider it a good choice for many reasons but no real need to detail that here, those that agree already know and those that don't wouldn't be convinced anyway!

Ditto!

I find, that the ones who usually don't make enough money in this business are the first ones complaining about having to join.
In my 19 years in this biz, I have never found a top producer complaining about joining a local board or being a member of NAR.

so I guess we're talking about "pay to play" ethics.

it doesn't bother anyone that the broker requirement is a guaranteed income stream for NAR and the state and local associations? does that say something about their motive?

it appears that we've found the underlying base for the ethics of some in this biz...MONEY. that's a far cry from "the golden rule" so often cited, and other ethical concepts based on fairness and equity.

Shana, nobody forces you to do anything in this life - you just have to live with your own choices (and the consequences of those choices). If you choose to join a broker who is a member of the NAR, then you are choosing to be a member of the NAR - if you don't like it, find another broker who isn't a member. If you can't, then get your brokers license and start your own brokerage. If enough agents decided they didn't like the NAR enough that they didn't go to work with participating brokers, those brokers may re-think their affiliation. again...100% voluntary - nobody forces you.

Regarding the comment above:



I am only bound to a client for as long as I choose to be bound to a client. If a client ever asked me to do something that I didn't want to do, and insisted that I follow through on their request even after I explained my reasons for not agreeing to it, I can excuse myself from the obligation and fire the client (I don't think I'd want to work with someone like that anyway).

Like I said above, your choices are your own, nobody forces you to do anything.

Regarding your argument that there are people who allow their ethical motivations be controlled by money...yes there are. They exist in every business, in every town, in every state, in every country - what's the point? I don't think anybody here would say "everybody is perfect" and that seems to be what your expectation is...

What does paying to be a part of an association have to do with ethics?

What does paying to be a part of an association have to do with ethics?

I want people to understand the nature of the ethics that in this case are imposed upon them. what many people in the industry may not realize is that this kind of unnecessarily controlling behavior by associations and other entities contributes greatly to corruption and monopolization of industries, which is generally a bad thing.

do you want an open, competitive industry, or do you want an industry controlled by a few, large entities? for me, the choice is clear.

federal anti-trust laws were enacted nearly a century ago to prevent this kind of behavior.

Any kind of association that has a large membership and wants to be credible has a COE.
This has nothing to do with anti trust laws; and saying at the same time, that because NAR is the controlling organization, makes it easier to be corrupt, is really going "out there".

I find that major trade associations want a clean image of their business and that having a Code of Ethics provides a measurable standard by which the membership can be held accountable to that goal.

Certainly anyone not wanting to commit to an ethical standard is free to do business without being a member (assuming proper training and licensing).

Shana - nothing is imposed on anybody...you can choose to be a member of NAR and held to their standard of ethics, or you can choose to NOT be a member of NAR and NOT be held to their standard of ethics. Again...nothing is IMPOSED on anybody against their will here...NAR is a voluntary association...and if the NAR code of ethics was an anti-trust violation, it wouldn't be here any longer...

Your arguments seem to be jumping to huge conclusions without any substance...

it's like saying "yeah...I'd play in the NBA if only they didn't have those stupid rules they impose on everybody...so instead I'll play by my own rules...fight the power!"....

...
...yeah...

I didn't say the COE is a violation of anti-trust.

But, it is common knowledge that NAR has been sued for anti-trust violations. did you miss the memo?

NAR membership is NOT a completely voluntary choice if most of the brokers in a particular market are NAR-affiliated/MLS members. newly licensed agents just don't have many options in this regard.

Because of the VOW policy? I have not noticed a difference in my day to day RE activities, have you?

The DOJ keeps trying to make something stick, regardless if it's beneficial for the general public or not.

http://www.realtor.org/realtororg.nsf/pages/lawsuitdismissed

http://www.realtor.org/law_and_policy/doj/nar_doj

Shana,

Anybody can get sued for anything - it doesn't mean the lawsuit has merit. The DOJ lawsuit has been settled and NAR isn't in violation of any anti-trust laws...so I'm not sure where you're going with that...

Find me an agent who says there is no alternative than joining the NAR and I'll show you an agent who's not looking. Shana - you're not a member...so obviously you had a choice, yes? Just checking...

In another thread, shana affirmed that she is not a member but did say she uses the MLS. I have questions about a couple of things.

First, does that mean the full MLS, or just an IDX feed intended for the public? Second, if it is the full MLS, how does that happen?

Answers to these questions will likely bring more questions....

TB, I really want you to answer your own questions, because this is not by any means secret information. LOL

TB not all MLS systems require an agent to be a REALTOR to be a member. I believe Jennifer Allan's market in Denver is like that.

I think there has been an assumption that all Realtor board owned ML Systems require you to be a Realtor while those that are not Realtor board owned do not. One of my ML Services is broker (not board) owned but it still requires you to be a Realtor to participate.

If you work for a member broker, you have to belong.
My daughter is a REALTOR broker in Denver at KW, and ex RE/MAX agent.

LOCALLY: It means you had better be in compliance or suffer the consequences, in what is reputed to be some of the most stringent regulations in North America

When the legislature brought in the then new Real Estate and Business Brokers Act 2002 they incorporated the entire Code of Ethics as "Regulations" under the (“Act”) giving them the force of law, together with the completion of ongoing mandatory education courses and error & omission insurance coverage for the protection of the consumer in order to obtain or to renew a real estate licence.

Further, the (“Act”) adheres to the legal precedents established by the courts under the common law of agency. The Regulators with a staff of investigators, investigate, lay charges and prosecute offenders for violation of the “Regulations”.

The accused can then plea bargain his case or proceed to trial via an Administration tribunal with penalties of up to $50,000 for the individual offender and up to $250,000 for the brokerage firm.

If found guilty of an offence the offender can be held liable for the minimum daily tribunal costs of $800. per day or part thereof and additional costs in the event of an appeal is filed together with the related filing fees and transcripts costs running in the range of $1200. to $2,000. plus the offenders corresponding legal (lawyer) fees, all of which is excluded from the E & O insurance.

In addition, the offender may be subsequently charged with violations of the Provincial Offences Act (misdemeanours) and/or the Criminal Code (Penal Code) for various other offences and may also be sued civilly for damages.

Important Notice: This information is provided as basic educational information by the author and is not a substitute for the advice of an expert and/or the advice of a lawyer. There is NO representation as to legality, accuracy, correctness of the herein information and the reader is strongly urged to consult a lawyer in the relevant jurisdiction to ensure accuracy before acting on this information .

I am a Realtor and the ONLY reason I am a Realtor is access to the MLS. I personally find it offensive that some peopel thing Realtors are moe ethical than non Realtor Agents and Brokers. The problem that I see with the phrase "Realtors subscribe to a higher code of ethics" is that I see Realtors everyday doing things ranging from questionably moral to questionably legal. If I wasn't in Real Estate I think it would be a fun job to work for the Real Estate Commisioner as ann investigator, taking licenses away from Licensees who clearly don't care about morality or legality. As I see it ethical and legal violations by Realtors fall into two primarty categories. (1) Greed and (2) Ignorance. Greed is self explanatory everyone who has been in Real Estate for a significant amount of time has seen it. One of the most visible examples would be listing agents trying to corner both sides of a transaction to the point they will ignore offers from other Buyer Agents. When it comes to ignorance especially for agents who have been in Real Estate for 3 years or more, I find that is just as offensive as Fraud for Greed. We all have responsibilities ot our Clients, to our Brokers and to the State in which we conduct business. If you are not making a concerted effort to know all of your responsibilites under both the Realtor Code of Ethics and the State Law, you should give up your license and save the Commissioner the hassle of taking it away from you. I am amazed at the amount of career Realtors who claim to not know that something as simple as a Buyer claiming primary residence when applying for a new home loan, the Realtor and the Buyer are making plans to rent it out as soon as it closes, is Mortgage Fraud. Subscribing to a higher code of ethics in my opinion means being open to questioning every new scenario we haven't encountered before, asking for peer advise, asking for Broker insight, checking with the Commisioner's office, reading State Statutes, subscribing to self help forums such as this one.

Yes. Greed and ignorance. What's worse than a greedy agent is a greedy broker. Greedy brokers don't hold their agents accountable just so long as they are not caught. More agents means more money and that's the greedy brokers primary concern.

It's tiring really, to see all of the cheating that goes on. If I limited myself to only those who I thought upheld the highest moral and ethical standards, I'd be out of business very fast. So what can be done? Just come here and gripe on some Internet site? Folks aren't going to police themselves. I think there should be an anonymous hotline to turn in unscrupulous Realtors. Without punishment, bad behavior will never be curbed.

Ethics: a general idea or belief that influences people's behavior and attitudes; moral rules or principles of behavior for deciding what is right and wrong...

I assume some people don't know what ethics is. Well, I think they should, to gain respect.

Realtor.
I believe there is 1 moral code. No one knows for certain what it is, but it is very basic and it is pure good. If I were pressed to name it, I might answer, The Golden Rule...treat others as you would be treated. But I think true morality is more pure than that. Even the Golden Rule is based on how I want to be treated. I am not pure, and therfore the golden rule is the first example of ethics.
What is more basic than the golden rule?
Moral good is the gold. Ethics is the rule. To answer the question, 'What is moral?' might be treat others really well, which is kind of like, 'Love thy neighbor.'

There are many layers of ethics, which are rules set to an idea of the moral code. Most stem from the law. The COE is just an attempt to have Realtors 'love thy neighbor' as they practice real estate (and use the MLS)

Would you feel comfortable having your actions displayed in the local newspaper. Thats ethical decision making

Never dismiss the checks NAR sends to Congress and local governments to help NAR associated MLS services maintain their monopolies. Their claim to an ethical high ground exist more in print than reality.