It's in the best interests of the global corporations to turn America into a third world nation because we'll finally work for little or nothing.


The auto bailout is a thinly-veiled plot to smash the unions. They're doing great in other countries - but they're not going to use their global profits to help their own American factories because they can socialize their losses here instead because they own the media and they own the message and too many believe what they hear on tv and hate-radio.



When was America strongest? When did one income buy a house, a car, a stay-at-home wife with 2.5 kids, secure retirement and an annual Disneyland vacation? When were our manufacturing businesses thriving and growing?
--- Answer: 1940-1970, back when unions were strong is when.

Not exactly. A little historical perspective: The U.S. was "strong" after the rest of the world was in smoking ruins from WWII. The rest of the world were forced to buy everything from the U.S. They had no industry-- they had no food, they had no clothes, they had no shoes, they had no cars, they had no washing machines, they had no televisions, no toasters, nothing. And, they had no money to pay for these things. Our government loaned them money so that they could buy our corporations' goods. And they bought them at the prices we set. Had to buy them at any price. As an aside, they grew to dislike us.

THAT is what enriched the union workers and the unions. THAT is what made the U.S. boom times. Now, it's a whole new world, and our core industries refuse to acknowledge that, let alone act on it. They want to continue to operate as of old, no matter what, at any cost. If the rest of the world will no longer buy our overpriced goods, the corporations and unions arm-twisted easy credit. And then that house of cards fell down.

Good point, but the Unions did not do this:

Rock On Artiste!!! I was born, raised, housed, and fed with union wages my whole life... They sold us out... lock stock and barrel... and now they do not understand why we can not keep a roof over our heads!!! One factory shut down and the laid off workers had to tear down the machines and send them overseas ...so the CEOs and share holders could keep making bigger profits...what were they thinking??? As Im putting on my American made RED WINGS... Im ready to kick some butt! even tho Im running around in a banana outfit because I cant find any American made clothes!

Sorry, but the Big 3 unions are pricing themselves out of the market. Do you know labor costs at the Big 3 are 50% more than at places like Toyota and Nissan? I was reading an article where GM is paying their employees, benefits included, around $75/hr. Toyota is around $50/hr. Also, it costs the Big 3 about $1600 more to build a car than it does for other manufacturers. This is not an American/non-American argument as Nissan, Toyota, Mazda, etc. have manufacturing plants here in the States as well. You can not run a company with that much extra overhead and expect to remain competitive in today's marketplace. That's why their sales are slowing (and they are selling the wrong vehicles). Best thing for them is to go into bankruptcy, possibly merge, and renegotiate their labor contracts. It's what the airline industry was forced to do, and they came out of it perfectly fine. There's no reason to give them any money whatsoever.

There was a time for unions if you study labor, that time was over long ago because the employers were not taking advantage of the workers by the end of the sixties...as they were in the early part of the 21st century. My minor in the seventies was labor law.

From personal experience in management for my family construction company then, it was a real eye opener. The pendulum swung the other direction after 20 years of being signatory to a union agreement before from the fifties. Economics and sale of product and/or services to pay for the union wages and benefits seemed to fall on deaf union leaders. It was a tough row to hoe in a right to work state. It took three years to make the transition, first with becoming double breasted and then going full open shop.

It was a matter of financial survival as I learned more than not the union officials really had blinders on and did not have a handle nor a clue of the changing economic climate. We still provided health benefits, bonuses and a good wage with a differential of only 15% from "Fair Wage" as it was called. This allowed us to remain competitive and boom out across the central plains from Rapid City, SD to Corpus Christie, TX until my retirement in 1992.

north tx ...there are other unions than the Big 3, but they are woven into the fabric of America... My Dad was a Teamster and my Husband is in the Machinist unions, and I will continue to purchase American trucks and cars for as long as I can and I pray they can be restructured...as a tax payer Im not liking this bailing out companies...opps... I mean BANKS...Retof Yor I agree with your thoughts on deaf ears and business as usual but not every one will be the owner of a company. The WORKERS make the WORLD go around...ps... were did the 15% go? I know that was below the belt...its nice to know you took care of your workers...my husband...union shop still employed...my brother-in-law...non union shop...unemployed for 6 months...and job out sourced...O wait I think thats called restructured...I cant wait for when China introduce their new line of cars...In America...

Some very insightful comments with some great stuff from Artiste and Due Diligence. Roy seems to have a lot of knowledge here - it seems like the Union issue is a very complicated one. On the one hand without unionization workers will eventually be treated unfairly, but on the other union interests seem to get excessively focused on their side. At the end of the day, companies should not be creating pension and benefit programs that have any chance at being unsustainable.

People may not agree, but I think the concept of "retirement" and pension plans at this point is a dangerous gamble. I think people should be made responsible for their own savings. If they do not save enough they will need to continue to work. This would probably only serve to get people to actually work harder when they are working. Yes, this may lower the life expectancy from 90 to 85. I've never had a corporate job, but I suspect 4-5 hours of work get done in an 8 hour day, repeat, complain, and wait for retirement.

well, it's now painfully obvious who the US Congress answers to...THE BANKERS!

nevermind that the auto industry supports millions of working class American jobs. the Congress can't be bothered with the average, insignificant citizen trying to stay alive. but when the government's "elite" sponsors, the bankers, scream for money...the Congress jumps, and says "how many billions do you need?"

Actually - As much as I disagree with how the Bailout was conducted until this point - I think asking the Auto makers for a plan first is plain old logical.

Now as far as the 'average, insignificant citizen trying to stay alive' is concerned, you not serious - right? These blue collar/factory workers have been some of the highest paid in the WORLD. They most likely would not be worked into my definition of average - and they (the workers) will have a hard time adjusting to making the 30-60,000 like millions of others do - heaven for bid both spouses might need to work to have what they once had.

I buy American - belonged to several unions, marched in picket lines when asked (forced to if I wanted to work) but everything has it's time and place and everything is subject to change in order to survive.

Would it be fair for an auto worker in South Carolina making 15.00hr to pay for the bailout of his competitors that make 40.00hr ? I think there is a solution - but I also think it will not please everyone.

well, the Congress didn't demand that their banker masters produce a plan did they? they attached hardly any conditions to the massive 700 billion dollar bailout.

oh, I forgot, it's a self-regulating industry? de-regulation is what allowed this debacle to happen. bankers cannot be trusted to act responsibly on their own. history has proven this many times over. Congresspersons and Senators were told that the US economy would literall collapse, and we'd have riots in the streets if they did not approve the first bailout proposal offered by the lame duck. this is complete b.s., another case of fear-mongering, and the Congress capitulated to these demands. so, how can they apply a different standard to the US auto industry? It's irrational, but what it does show is how easily the US Congress is manipulated by the bankers and Wall Street. It's disgusting.

I'm from the South, the land of textiles and tobacco. I know the abuse the people suffered in the mills and mill towns while the owners got rich. A lot of people I know still live in (now historic) "mill houses" in now historic districts. I know how the mills only hired women after Reconstruction so they didn't have to pay them much. I know how, as years passed, uneducated children of mill workers went to the mill as soon as they could be hired. I know how that cycle affected the South. Kept it in poverty, illiteracy and early death. And the names of the mill owners are on streets and areas in tribute to what they "did" for the locals. Always made me ill.

But I also know that these mill workers were not mobile. I know most of them walked to the nearby mill. They had no choice. Unionization in these rural areas at that time, offered help to these oppressed people. But very few mills unionized. The actual workers fought it-- that's another story about despair and the fear of something new and of outsiders. Another whole book.

Once our population became mobile after WWII, people COULD move to better jobs. However, a lot of those jobs were available ONLY if you joined a union, especially "up North". So, that effectively ends a freedom of choice, of being able to work where you want to work without restrictions.

While unions did end suffering and abuse of local hostage workforces, no one can deny that being able to follow relatives into union jobs "cradle to grave" continued to keep a huge portion of our workforce uneducated and robotic, and still hostage to a system that is effectively defunct. The promise of a "job for life".

Hey, no one is entitled to a job for life. It makes you lazy. It makes you not try. If, for instance, a worker is, after a certain number of years, entitled to move up the ladder, from the mill floor to the office, when, in many instances that person is unable to perform in the new position(s), by education or personality, it makes for overall poor performance, resentment, and sabotage by people down the ladder. That's a main contributor of the phenomenon of "going postal".

So, to my mind, unions destroy competition among workers, and in the final analysis, they destroy the ability of our workers to compete globally. But, more importantly, unions inadvertently maintain the status quo of class distinctions by encouraging huge populations of people to never grow, never change.

The unions simply replaced the mill owners. Old-time mill owners were also seen as "generous and kind-hearted" or protective when they made sure that mill children had a Christmas present from them. Or they gave away food baskets. The unions do the exact same thing with scheduled raises, overtime, bonuses, benefits, all those "goodies". If anyone can see my reasoning, maybe they can see how this "cradle to grave" care reinforces class distinctions. And now, these workers at the Big Three are STILL hostages. Unable to fend for themselves should the mill close down. Nothing's changed!

Hi Shana - if you were replying to my post - you'll notice I mention I wasn't pleased with the Bailout so far - but I do admit something needed to be done. I did not agree with no restrictions being placed on those funds either - but I also understand the speed in which this came about that complete due diligence was not able to be performed.

This has never happened before where anyone tried to control the market - no rules - no one know how to play the game. In this instance everyone will be see what doesn't work after the fact - and not nearly as many will have guessed at something that will work - for the benefit of everyone.

Showing our disgust here is really of no consequence.

don't think for a minute that no one foresaw this massive failure. plenty of experts saw the extreme irresponsibity of the bankers and wall street. it happened as a result of greed and deception, and most just went with the flow. this is a sad commentary on the prevailing mentality in America, the "paradigm" in American business.

Union or not...our jobs are being taken away to be done cheaper...example,when I started doing BPOs average pay was 80-120 dollars...per order...but now are much much less...just how far can I bend over before I break? I may not live to see it but... a revolution will erupt...this is not a peachy keen world we live in...Heads will Roll...but the goverment will "tell" us its a terrorist attack...We are being brainwashed...with that deer in the headlights look! I know this seems a bit extreme...and it is! I do enjoy the chatter on this board...it helps me remain grounded!