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#248097 - 09/05/08 02:33 PM Re: Suicide or murder in a property? [Re: REODayton]
youbetcha1018 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 34
Loc: USA
[quote=REODayton]Odds are the buyer is going to find out sooner or later. The neighbors always tell everything. Some buyers could care less, others will shy away from the house. Nothing worse than getting down to the wire and then the info comes out and kills the deal. [/quote]

I agree. No secret stays as secret forever.

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#249494 - 09/12/08 10:43 PM Re: Suicide or murder in a property? [Re: youbetcha1018]
Illinois Agent Offline
Member

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 227
Loc: Illinois
We just had a article in our local paper about infamous places around the area. It listed one house were a older couple were murdered and it is still unsolved. It said the home was currently on the market...so I looked it up and it was under contract...two days after the article it was reactivated...I can only guess the buyers read the article!

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#250361 - 09/17/08 07:07 PM Re: Suicide or murder in a property? [Re: Illinois Agent]
Devil's Advocate Offline
Member

Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 259
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Warranty Clause: Red Flags are raised in the event the seller is hesitant in agreeing to this warranty clause and further due diligence is warranted on the part of a buyer's agent.

"Seller hereby warrants that he is not aware of any defects in the property or problems in the neighbourhood that could affect the buyer’s use and enjoyment of the property and/or the value of the property. Such defects and problems include, but are not limited to: urea formaldehyde insulation whether still present or removed, lead paint, asbestos insulation, buried fuel tanks, termites, radon gas, mould, arsenic-treated lumber, polybutylene plumbing, encroachments, rights-of-way, restrictive covenants, soil contamination, deaths, suicides, or murders, illegal activities which occurred on the property, or neighbourhood conditions that could affect the value of the property or threaten the health or safety of the buyers or their children. This warranty shall survive the closing and remain in full force and effect thereafter, but shall only apply to conditions which existed at or prior to closing."

Important Notice: This information is provided as basic educational information by the author and is not a substitute for the advice of an expert and/or the advice of a lawyer. There is NO representation as to legality, accuracy, correctness of the herein information and the reader is strongly urged to consult a lawyer in the relevant jurisdiction to ensure accuracy before acting on this information

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#257729 - 11/01/08 06:36 PM Re: Suicide or murder in a property? [Re: Devil's Advocate]
MB-Realtor Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/08
Posts: 10
Loc: Manitoba - Canada
[quote=Devil's Advocate][b]Warranty Clause:[/b]

"Seller hereby warrants that he is not aware of any defects in the property or problems in the neighbourhood that could affect the buyer’s use and enjoyment of the property and/or the value of the property. Such defects and problems include, but are not limited to: urea formaldehyde insulation whether still present or removed, lead paint, asbestos insulation, buried fuel tanks, termites, radon gas, mould, arsenic-treated lumber, polybutylene plumbing, encroachments, rights-of-way, restrictive covenants, soil contamination, [b]deaths, suicides, or murders[/b], illegal activities which occurred on the property, or neighbourhood conditions that could affect the value of the property or threaten the health or safety of the buyers or their children. This warranty shall survive the closing and remain in full force and effect thereafter, but shall only apply to conditions which existed at or prior to closing."

[/i] [/quote]


Thats a great clause, but what Sellers Agent in their right mind is going to let a client accept a clause like that, especially in a Province like Manitoba where "Buyer Beware" is enshrined in the Law.

PS. Is that your copywrite or may I use it on a suitable occasion?




Edited by MB-Realtor (11/01/08 06:37 PM)

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#257765 - 11/01/08 10:54 PM Re: Suicide or murder in a property? [Re: MB-Realtor]
Devil's Advocate Offline
Member

Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 259
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Some buyer's agent might consider the previously mentioned warranty clause as simply a tactical manoeuver.

1. It clearly demonstrates that the buyer’s agent is fulfilling his fiduciary duty to his client and endeavouring to protect his clients interest.

2. The seller's refusal to accept such a clause in whole or in part, clearly demostrates to the buyer that there may be undisclosed problems with the property, which then places the onus on the buyers to decide whether or not to proceed with their offer.

3. Should the buyer decide to proceed, the buyer’s agent would then be obligated to raise the question with the seller's agent, of whether the property was affected by one or more of the mentioned problems in the rejected warranty clause.

4. The buyer’s agent might then recommend to the buyers that their offer be made conditional upon receipt of satisfactory inspection reports in relation to the property and might suggest that a clause similar to the following be inserted in their offer.

Quote:
This agreement is conditional for a period of 30 days from acceptance hereof upon the Buyer conducting a building and/or other inspection of the property and being satisfied in its sole discretion with the results of such inspection(s), which shall form a condition hereof which only the Buyer may, at its option waive in hold or in part at any time during the conditional period. The Seller shall allow the Buyer and its agents access to the Property on two (2) occasions prior to closing, during normal business hour, upon two-(2) days written notice to the Seller, for the purpose of conducting such inspection.


Note that all buyer agent’s recommendation and the acknowledgment thereof, together with the buyer’s instructions are all clearly documented for the buyer agent’s protection, in the event of issues being raised regarding a breach of the buyer’s agent fiduciary duty to the buyers.

Important Notice: This information is provided as basic educational information by the author and is not a substitute for the advice of an expert and/or the advice of a lawyer. There is NO representation as to legality, accuracy, correctness of the herein information and the reader is strongly urged to consult a lawyer in the relevant jurisdiction to ensure accuracy before acting on this
information

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#257821 - 11/02/08 02:18 PM Re: Suicide or murder in a property? [Re: Devil's Advocate]
pikes peak Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 2288
Loc: CO
No seller in my location would ever sign such a disclosure without having the documentation to prove it, even than, ie., where there was no high level of radon at time of testing, there might be a high reading later (because of seasonal or athmospheric pressure differences), placing the seller statement in legal jeopardy.
The onus of responsibility for any and all inspections lies with the buyer in our contracts.

"Note that all buyer agent’s recommendation and the acknowledgment thereof, together with the buyer’s instructions are all clearly documented for the buyer agent’s protection, in the event of issues being raised regarding a breach of the buyer’s agent fiduciary duty to the buyers."

That's a bogus statement. The inspections are the buyers and not the agents responsibility. They (recommendation of performing an inspection) are not there to protect the agent, but to protect the buyer. For example, the agent has no qualifications to objectively say that a structural or termite inspection etc. should be performed.
Even home inspectors, in their standards of practice, have limitations in their inspections, if they don't possess the state mandated extra qualifications (ie. inspect for insects).

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#258046 - 11/03/08 10:27 PM Re: Suicide or murder in a property? [Re: pikes peak]
Cygnus Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 96
Loc: Tucson, AZ
Interesting how things are so different from state to state.

Here in AZ our purchase contract and buyer broker agreement specifically states the seller and brokers DO NOT need to disclose if the home has been the sight of a murder,suicide OR ANY FELONY. They also do not need to disclose if someone living there had hiv/aids or any other disease not known to be transmitted through common occupancy.

No mention of ghosts. :-)

I always direct people to the appropriate source for this type of information.



Edited by Cygnus (11/03/08 10:28 PM)
_________________________
**** I am not a lawyer and I am not giving legal advice ****


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#258090 - 11/04/08 09:55 AM Re: Suicide or murder in a property? [Re: Cygnus]
Devil's Advocate Offline
Member

Registered: 01/03/05
Posts: 259
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Locally there is no specific law (as yet) compelling a real estate agent to make the type of disclosures as noted herein. But, our Code of Ethics has been coded in law as Regulatory Statutes and relates,to both moral and ethical issues in conjunction with the fiduciary duties enshrined in the law of agency.

Therefore, an agent is compelled under law to fulfill his fiduciary duty and act in the best interest of his client, due diligence, etc. or risk being found guilty of "unprofessional conduct" by the regulatory authorities, to be followed by a civil lawsuit by a complainant.

In order to avoid the risk of having to defend themselves and the time and costs as may be involved, most local agents have voluntarily chosen to make disclosure.

The following is some background on issues similar in nature :

Quote:
In the marketplace, the big issue has always been whether there is an obligation to disclose the nature and existence of the stigma to potential buyers.

In the early 1980s Dorris Reed purchased a house in California from Robert King. Neither King nor his real estate agents told Reed that a woman and her four children were murdered there 10 years earlier. Reed learned of the gruesome episode from a neighbour after she moved in. She discovered that no one wanted to buy the house because of the stigma, and sued to set aside the sale. The California Court of Appeals ruled in Reed's favour, declaring that there was a duty to disclose facts known or accessible only to the seller if the information has a significant, measurable effect on market value.

Shortly afterward, California became the first state to pass a law defining the disclosure responsibility of an owner and real estate agent when selling stigmatized property. The law requires an agent to disclose the fact of a murder on the property for a period of three years after the event.

A similar case occurred in 1989 when bond trader Jeffrey Stambovsky put a deposit on a $650,000 house overlooking the Hudson River in Nyack, N.Y. Unknown to him, the vendor had published stories in Reader's Digest about the home's ghost, a cheerful little fellow in a revolutionary war uniform. The house had also been included in local walking tours and described as a "riverfront Victorian (with ghost).

The court said the real estate broker, as agent for the seller, was "under no duty to disclose to a potential buyer the phantasmal reputation of the premises," and admitted that Stambovsky hadn't a "ghost of a chance" of proving fraud.

Nevertheless, Stambovsky got his deposit back because the house had a prominent reputation and the non-disclosure of its history struck at the very essence of the contract between buyer and seller due to the reduced value of the house.


It has been said that about half of all American states have laws requiring disclosure of property stigma and in other areas the rule is caveat emptor, or buyer beware.

Important Notice: This information is provided as basic educational information by the author and is not a substitute for the advice of an expert and/or the advice of a lawyer. There is NO representation as to legality, accuracy, correctness of the herein information and the reader is strongly urged to consult a lawyer in the relevant jurisdiction to ensure accuracy before acting on this information





Edited by Devil's Advocate (11/04/08 09:57 AM)
Edit Reason: paragraph spacing

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#258334 - 11/05/08 05:53 PM Re: Suicide or murder in a property? [Re: Devil's Advocate]
pikes peak Offline
Major Contributor

Registered: 12/15/04
Posts: 2288
Loc: CO
Quote:
It has been said that about half of all American states have laws requiring disclosure of property stigma and in other areas the rule is caveat emptor, or buyer beware.


I think the imagined stigma disclosure (like ghosts and such) is a requirement in the states that have the most attorneys, so if an agent forgets, the buyer has an additional out of the purchase contract or lawsuit. wink

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#259333 - 11/11/08 05:37 PM Re: Suicide or murder in a property? [Re: Artiste]
REO Agency Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 27
Loc: CA
In California you have to disclose up to 3 years if someone has passed away on the property, I have to double check, but pretty sure. I'm sure as an agent you can get away with not knowing but always better to disclose, disclose, disclose even if it is a rumor that won't go away.

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#259344 - 11/11/08 06:28 PM Re: Suicide or murder in a property? [Re: REO Agency]
LaceyF Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/08
Posts: 306
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: REO Agency
In California you have to disclose up to 3 years if someone has passed away on the property, I have to double check, but pretty sure. I'm sure as an agent you can get away with not knowing but always better to disclose, disclose, disclose even if it is a rumor that won't go away.


They tell us 3 years but in a risk management class I was at a couple years ago they said there is legal precident for disclosing as far as 10 years back!

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