If a buyer were to ask you what the predominant race is in a particular neighborhood are you allowed to tell them what it is?

no, you are not allowed.

nope. Not allowed.

Remember, what I said about rereading Principles & Practices? Time to hit the books -- again.

Absolutely not but you can guide them to a school report which will show economic, demographic and social composition of a neighborhood.

LisaD, So you tell them. " Sorry, Mr and Mrs Buyer, I can't give you that information, but if you really want to know, you can check the school report which will show economic, demographic and social composition of a neighborhood. You can find it at wwww.schoolreport.com"
Is that how you do it LisaD?

What I have had to tell buyers is "I cannot answer that question because it violates the fedral Fair housing Act, but you can check census data online, or feel free to drive around the neighborhood and make your own observations." I had one woman get angry and tell me she was so sick of having everyone "walk a tightrope" and afraid to answer a simple question. I just told her that I was, too, but I'm more sick of watching other people in my profession getting sued or losing their licenses for NOT being careful... That's what can happen if you answer those types of questions, and they DO send out people to try and catch agents violating the Act.

You can also direct them to zip-codes.com to find demographics for a particular zipcode.

Why do you feel obligated to "Direct" them anywhere? What do you think about a client who would ask you that question?

Aren't you going down a slippery slope when you entertain any discussion along this line....

How about a simple answer like... "I have no idea"

Who said anything about "feeling obligated"?

What do I think about a client who would ask me that question? I wouldn't make any judgement about him based on the question other than that he wants information which, by law, I cannot provide. However, if he pressed for info I might suggest that he visit the web for information related to demographics.

How about a simple answer like "I have no idea". That works too... unless it is a lie, in which case I'd suggest he do his own research.

I have to get on my soapbox now: I think this is a STUPID law! I can see how discrimination and steering are bad, but if clients want to live by jews, blacks, whites, muslims, etc then that should be their choice and it's stupid and counter productive for me to not be able to answer a simple question.

Advertisers can legally be told this information, same for most clients in other businesses, why not home buyers?

On the other side of this coin; I have been asked if a certain ethnic group lives in the neighborhood because "I won't live near them" and I have to answer "I can't answer that question" .
The less said, the better. It may be a stupid law, but it is the one that will get us in trouble real fast.

Can you give them a website that shows them the demographics?

I happen to agree with Jflynn, if a client wants to know this then why shoundn't we be able to tell them. I mean if they're going to LIVE in this neighborhood we should be able to tell them EVERYTHING about it that they want to know.

You may want to take this quiz--and pay particular attention to #8.


http://www.realtor.org/rmoquiz2.nsf/FairHousingQuiz?OpenForm

There are very good reasons for the Fair Housing Laws as realtors have a lot of influence on steering their clients in the direction of one neighborhood vs. another. Giving information about demographics increases the likelihood of like people living with like people and decreases the chances of diversity. Whenever we do anything that encourages people to "live among their own kind" -- whatever that kind is, we help to create a society that is less heterogeneous. We have an important role to play in where people choose to live and we shouldn't forget the important ethical and moral issues that accompany our role.

Just in case we do forget, there are the Fair Housing Laws -- thank heavens, because as we can see from this thread, left to their own devices, agents will always try to serve their clients immediate needs over the larger needs of our society.

MDHomes2Go,

What are you really telling a client when you say "I have no idea" and do not follow up with but I can get you that information? They are going to wonder what else you have no idea about and begin to doubt your competency as their agent.

I feel a better way of answering that is that "fair housing regulations prevent me from answering that question but I can direct you to www.schoolreport.com or you can contact the school district office for that information.

Lying to them just makes you look foolish or worse!

We are not and should not be the political correctness police. It's not our job to integrate society.

And to get down to brass tacks, people in general DO make decisions based on race and creed and religion. So many people get on a high horse about how racially accepting they are, yet when you look at them their freinds are predominately the same race and their mates/spouses also tend to be the same race. We all discriminate whether we want to admit it or not, and within reason discrimination is not a bad thing.

Agree 100%. Telling them you have "no idea" at best says you have no freaking idea what you're doing, or worse yet is an outright lie.

If I have buyer clients who want to live with others similar to themselves I'll do what I can within the law and COE to help them find what they want.

Racism and discrimination can be very subtle, but it hurts just the same when you are on the recieving end of it.
You can justify it by saying you are helping your client find what they want but I bet you both think it's ok to do it all day long with a wink and a nod. I get your drift.
The law can not change how you feel, but at least it's there to offer some protection from the blatant discrimination that many of you used to feel was ok.

So you're pointing the finger now, eh? A quick quiz for you:
- Are your friends predominately the same race as you?
- If married or in a relationship, is your significant other the same race as you?
- Do you live in an area where your race is the predominant one?

GailSusan,
Your job IS to serve the needs of your client within the law....not to serve the greater good of society. Real Estate is a Business.

You must have clients that have no clue where they want to live or what schools they want their children to attend. The majority of my family clients all know what areas they are looking in and what schools they are willing to accept so the search area is pre-defined so there is no steering on my part. Let the client determine where they want to live.
If they are unfamiliar with the area I always suggest they check out the school links and various community links on my site, drive the different areas at various times of the day and ask any family, friends or co-workers about the area.

We should not be the ones that decide where a buyer should live. If they want to live in a place with just their own kind it is their right. Everyone discriminates in one way or another, we are human. If a buyer asks about a neighborhoods demographic and we do not tell them, that is also a form of steering, by not informing them you are essentially making them live where they do not want to live.
I, of course will follow the law, but in my opinion we should be allowed to tell them if they should ask.

I haven't noticed works fine. Unless my clients are black and the neighborhood is full of burned crosses, I keep my mouth shut, and even then, I would tell them to just look around. You never know when you could get in trouble. It's also morally wrong. Treat everyone the same unless they are green, then take them to the bank!

Jason,
Even money says MDHomes2Go is a liberal! When confronted with the truth they always throw out the racism and discrimination allegation to direct the spotlight away from the truth.
I find it really funny that leap of logic was made when my point was simply "If you say I don't know and do not offer to assist your client by directing them to a place they can get the information then they will think you are not working for them or you are just Stupid!

"It's not our job to integrate society" therefore we should not be "directing" them or "guiding" them to any particular source of demographic information. If people feel this strongly about what the racial make-up of a neighborhood is, it is up to them to determine how many jews or blacks or whites or hispanics is an acceptable level.
Is it lying to them to say "I have no idea"? Do you know the racial make-up of any neighborhood in your town? Do you really know or are you just guessing based on your observation. If you can recite the demographic breakdown off the top of your head, does that make you a better agent? Are you selling real estate or are you the local Census Taker too?
People disciminate all day long, it's human nature, but as a person of influence in their home buying decision, you should strive to be above that... And it's the law.

hey J, at times the truth can be very helpful. Sometimes it can be dangerous. There are questions that I want to stay away from entirle. I am sure I could guide them within the law, I just wouldn't want to do that. If my buyer wants a place with a certain race, that's his/her job, I just sell the land and what ever is attached. In todays world, that topic is too much of a liability. Not to say your post is negative, just adding input.

JFlynn wrote: "So you're pointing the finger now, eh? A quick quiz for you:"

- Are your friends predominately the same race as you? Answer: No
- If married or in a relationship, is your significant other the same race as you? Answer: Yes
- Do you live in an area where your race is the predominant one? Answer: No

Did I pass?

What is wrong with telling yiour client the truth? That is, Fair Housing Laws do not allow you to discuss racial, religous, etc. demographics. If I tell a client there are laws I have to follow that do not allow me to address these types of questions, they all understand fully.
Why would you want to say anything other than that? What advantage do you have by saying "I don't know"? That seems pretty stupiod to me.

When you walk away from them, the wife tells the husband" he could have told us, it's not like were cops". That is what happens.

Never was guiding them in their decision ever mentioned. What was said is direct them to the research sources so they can make thier own informed decision. That is how you serve your clients

Can you guide them to websites too?

Exactly! Whether I'm prejudiced or not is not important. Fair Housing Laws are designed to ensure that we rise above our own biases.

A fellow agent always uses the line, "It's not illegal for you to ask me that question, but IT IS ILLEGAL for me to answer it."

And, Paul, while it is not my job to improve society, it is in my best interests and my clients' interests to conduct my business within the the law, not outside of it.

This particular question happens to me all the time. I live in a city where are caucasians, hispanics and afros.
I am lucky my clients never asked me but they already know where are the areas they want to avoid, the buyers make the racial remark not me.

I did better on the Sexual Harassment quiz than I did on the Fair Housing one

And your point is???? Conduct our business within the law is the only way to go!
How is it against the law to direct a buyer to sites where they can research answers to their questions.......?

If your primary area is rentals then you better learn fair housing forward and back! Testors are common in the rental area, especially in large cities!

I would answer, How could I answer that? Personally I didnt take no stinking poll! people move in and out. do I look like the census..lol

I would honestly answer them that I couldn't give an accurate answer and that they should research that themselves if it is a concern.

Maryknoll, you excell in areas you are most interested in, so... are you the harasser or the harassee? :rolleyes:

Recently I was working with a Hispanic couple from Florida, looking for investment properties in my area. They asked if there were Hispanics in the area. Answer - yes. The next question was how many or what percentage. Answer - I really don't know; but if that information is important to you, you can check the most recent census reports for the city.

The most common question I get is whether it is a safe neighborhood or a statement of fact - I want a safe neighborhood. I explain that what I consider to be a safe neighborhood and what they consider to be safe may in fact be quite different. I give them a copy of the most recent local crime statistics map and suggest they contact the police department for more information.

Quality of schools is another big consideration - I always refer parents to my web page with local schools and a link to the state "report card" site.

I cover my rear lots of times with the statement:
"I really don't know; but if that information is important to you, you can..." There are many, many questions about a property, whether it be ethnicity of the neighborhood, condition of the roof, age of the furnace, property lines, etc., that agents answer that put themselves in legal and/or financial jeopardy.

I started in the business in California where a buyer would sue at the drop of the hat. It was pounded into us that even if you were a stuctural engineer in your past life, you are a realtor now - if you note a structural problem, point out the possiblity and suggest they have it checked by a structural engineer. Don't put yourself and your livelihood on the line.

Enough rambling here. Just remember - CYA!

Betty

Paul, Actually working within the law is not the only way to go, there is a higher standard than the law that REALTORS are held to...

From the REALTOR CODE OF ETHICS:

Standard of Practice 10-1

When involved in the sale or lease of a residence, REALTORS® shall not volunteer information regarding the racial, religious or ethnic composition of any neighborhood nor shall they engage in any activity which may result in panic selling, however, REALTORS® may provide other demographic information. (Adopted 1/94, Amended 1/06)

We have such a strong desire to serve our customers, that it is easy for both the Fair Housing Laws and the higher standards of the REALTOR Code of Ethics to slip our minds. The consequences of doing so, however, are serious, including financial penalties and even suspension or revocation of one's license. That the offense was unintentional is no defense.

And although we do have a business to run and our clients' needs come front and center, there is a larger role we play in society that we should keep in mind as we go about earning a living...

From Modern Real Estate Practice (Galaty, Allaway, & Kyle) 2003 (p. 349):

"The real estate industry is largely responsible for creating and maintaining an open housing market. Brokers and salespersons are a community's real estate experts. Along with the privilege of profiting from real estate transactions comes the social and legal responsibilities to ensure that everyone's civil rights are protected."

So, in your opinion, steering people towards neighborhoods with people that look like themselves is wrong. But, steering them towards people that look different is not just ok, but a desirable thing so we can create a better society? In other words, steering for a goal you agree with is ok?

What ever happened to the concept of freedom? Why is it bad if a person wants to live near other people of a like mind? Should we consider steering New Yorkers to Iowa to promote a more diverse society? What about Georgians to California?

Seriously. I understand why many of the laws were enacted; they were an attempt to correct wrongs of the past. However, some of the laws have really outlived their usefulness. Others have created absurd positions.

You say tomato I say tomaato. get it?

Actually most of these laws were created to win votes.... and voted on to not loose votes

Hahahaa what am I supposed to say? I"m implicated either way. Good one

Thank you, Sir! I got 7 out of 12 correct on the quiz. I don't know how good or bad that is. It said I have a "working knowledge" of Fair Housing so I learn from my wrong answers. I got 100% correct on the sexual harassment questions so I don't need to do anything else there.

GailSusan,
You are good at cutting and paste but you are still lacking substance. The COE says you are not to volunteer information regarding the racial, religious or ethnic composition of any neighborhood nor shall they engage in any activity which may result in panic selling, however, REALTORS® may provide other demographic information.

Perhaps you should go back a reread my post. My point was that it makes you look like you do not know what you are doing if you simply say "I Don't Know"....If a client asks I simply suggest that the answers they are looking for can be researched on x websites or the public library..this does not violate any laws or the COE!

If you plan to use the COE to back you position you better go back and read it again...and read the situation you are trying to apply it to!

Sometimes out-of-town clients don't know what to expect in a neighborhood. I had some from Maine who told me "we don't wanna live next door to any crack heads *wink* *wink.* So after much searching in their very low price range, they happily settled on a little quaint community near the northern Tenn border, teaming with meth-labs.

Oh and I did suggest that they check out demographics and crime statistics on the web.

Well personally speaking on this subject everyone is born into a certain race.Growing up you are molded to a certain extent by culture and your surroundings.Example in my subdivision we have guatamalans,great people but there culture is hard to handle.Where they come from it's ok to kill chickens at there home and eat them,it's ok to pour oil on the ground after doing a tune up on there car,It's ok to drink 14 beers and then go running around the house screaming at 12 at night.

Although they are good people would i want to live next to that in my next house,no way!

Every race has a culture naturally people will want to go where the percieve they will feel most comfortable in the way they are used to living.

I just tell people by law i can't answer that question because it's against government federal fair housing laws but you can go to these local websites and find out information about the area.

There are some people in Ky that do the same thing.

My neighbor does that and I live in a New York apartment!

I don't know why I have to hear intentional bongos on the walls every night either

Don't be modest it's not some-it's lots of people in Ky. They just passed a zoning ordinance in a town very near me to prevent a woman from raising chickens in a residential neighborhood. She was keeping them as pets and gave them full privlages of the property.

I have not stated my opinion, just the facts. Steering is illegal. It doesn't matter how well intended you are in your motives. The client must choose the area, not the agent. You can direct them to objective sources of information regarding crime statistics, school information, demographics, etc., but you cannot recommend that they look at one neighborhood over another.

The laws were created because as real estate agents we have a lot of influence over our clients' choices. We can pretend that our role doesn't have an impact on society, but it does.

Paul, I am in complete agreement with you

We should be knowledgeable about demographics and not say "I don't know" -- as that does make us look incompetent. We can also direct them to sources, such as the Police Department to get information on the safety of an area. However, we have to be careful that the WAY we hand out demographic data or direct clients to demographic sources cannot be construed as us STEERING clients to one neighborhood over another.

The underlying principle is to let buyers select their own neighborhoods.

I apologize if I wasn't clear in my earlier post.

GailSusan,
Earlier you said, "Just in case we do forget, there are the Fair Housing Laws -- thank heavens, because as we can see from this thread, left to their own devices, agents will always try to serve their clients immediate needs over the larger needs of our society."

and now...

"The underlying principle is to let buyers select their own neighborhoods.

I apologize if I wasn't clear in my earlier post."


I think that is being a little bit unclear and semi-contradictory.

As agents we want to please our clients and if they want us to recommend the best neighborhood for them to live in, then it's hard not to do so. However the basic underlying principle to follow in avoiding problems with the Fair Housing Laws and not violating the Realtor Code of Ethics is to let buyers select their own neighborhoods.

I really don't understand how I'm being either unclear or contradictory with these two statements. Please explain.

Ok.

Initially, you said:

Now you say:

By first encouraging societal diversity at the expense of individual choice and now espousing individual choice without regard for the impact on society, it would seem you have taken two different positions.

Additionally, you stated:

Stressing the whole "needs of the many' thing, but then you later state:

So...do you feel the Fair Housing laws are designed to serve society (and not the needs of my client) or are designed to let my client make his own choice on where to live?

What AuburnFootball said.

They are obviously designed to serve society. I don't understand the contradiction. We want to serve the needs of our customers, but our role has an influence on society.

What is the difference between answering them verbally? Handing them a piece of paper with the information written on it that you printed off the website, or telling them the web address to get the exact information you could have just told them?

Please explain the legal difference between these, not the obvious differences which is just form of medium.

-J

I would not dare put my head on that Fair Housing chopping block.

Josh, To get back to your original question -- I believe that the difference lies in how discoverable the evidence of discrimination is. In 1999, NAR recommended that real estate firms purge their websites of demographic data regarding protected classes. If you hand out information, there is a hard copy for jurors or the judge to look at.

Some buyer agents hand out a paper to their buyer clients at the first meeting that states they adhere to the Fair Housing Laws. The agent can produce this document in court and believe it or not, it serves a good defense. This only works if they hand the paper out consistently to each and every client. It is also why real estate offices put up Fair Housing notices -- discoverable evidence that they support the Fair Housing laws. Kind of silly, I know, but this is the way the courts look at it.

I think the next area that will be tested in case law on Fair Housing violations will be that of school data. The 2006 Fair Housing Trends Report (April 6, 2006) found that agents tend to use the quality of schools in a neighborhood as a proxy for racial or ethnic composition (www.nationalfairhousing.org).

If you physically hand out information on demographics to buyers, you would need to hand out information on all neighborhoods to every single buyer, not just some -- otherwise it would look like steering (why did you only hand out these neighborhoods and not others) -- or you would need to provide the information upon request by the buyers for just those neighborhoods that the buyers request (this is what we do in my office). Either way you do it, you would need to do it consistently, treating every buyer the same way. You would also need to be sure that information on protected classes was eliminated in the data you hand out.

Most state boards of education have search site you can direct your buyers. That link is the one I have on my site and the one I refer to clients or potential clients.

Paul, Good idea! The problem comes in when we start to say "X school district is an excellent one" vs. "Y school district isn't as desirable". Let clients make up their own minds based on their research.

The original question was "If a buyer were to ask you what the predominant race is in a particular neighborhood are you allowed to tell them what it is?"
Someone answered "Absolutely not but you can guide them to a school report which will show economic, demographic and social composition of a neighborhood."
And then someone else answered "I feel a better way of answering that is that "fair housing regulations prevent me from answering that question but I can direct you to www.schoolreport.com or you can contact the school district office for that information."

And Gail wrote "The 2006 Fair Housing Trends Report (April 6, 2006) found that agents tend to use the quality of schools in a neighborhood as a proxy for racial or ethnic composition."
Exactly!
Please note that the original question was not about schools. Now you see how agents natural biases work in the real world. The law is supposed to reign in the blatant violators, but it won't change people's feelings. We still have a long way to go.

I used to work in Prince Georges County Maryland in the 80s. Somebody asked what the racial make up of the area was. The broker said, I'm not permitted to give you the answer but its not illegal for me to tell you to look outside the window. I dont know if what he said was in poor taste, but there were literally hundreds of people in the parking lot outside that window.

At that time, the area was according to Census data less than 20 percent white.

When people used to comment like wow, there sure are alot of red headed irish folks here. I just replied, Well, Folks are folks. They knew I wasn't interested in discussing race.

How about we slip them a little note that will vanish 5 seconds after being read!

It is not our job to try to cure the ills of society, by any means, and we would fail if we tried. It is our job to help people buy or sell real estate. I honestly don't see anything wrong with giving requested info to people, but we aren't allowed to. I don't want people to think I'm an idiot (until they get to know me better and figure it out on their own) so i won't act like I don't know the answers. I just tell them that I cannot give them the answers, and that the law says I can't. I don't have to agree with all the laws, but I have to follow them, or accept the consequences of breaking them. I'm not ready to be sued or lose my license, so I am very careful what gets said... As long as we are allowed to keep letting people know about the meth labs, I'm okay... Oops! Are the meth-makers who are collecting disability because they fried their brains years ago a protected class?

Zephyr, How can you deny that what we do and say doesn't have an impact on what areas people choose to look in for their new homes? When people are new to an area, it is only natural that they turn to their real estate agent for guidance. As human beings, we are filled with the same prejudices and biases as the rest of society. All the law is trying to do is to neutralize our tendency to "help" our clients find the "right" neighborhood for them. Fair Housing Laws are not a bad thing if you look at the big picture.

Okay it may not be your job to cure the ills of society, but without Fair Housing Laws real estate agents could perpetuate the injustices of our society. Fair Housing Laws by themselves don't make this world a better place, but they do try to neutralize the negative effects that would occur if we all gave recommendations on where we think our clients should live.

And that is exactly why I take issue with your position. You are operating from a mindset that I (and all agents) have a negative impact on society, and government must pass laws to 'neutralize' my tendancy to ruin things.

Why do you assume that my recommendations to a client on 'where to live' are going to be racist (or anti-Semite, or whatever)???

I gree with everything Zephyr said. He follows the law, tells them he is following the law and does not want to jeopardize his license. I will go read his message again, but I did not get much more out of it than that.

I am operating from evidence based upon multiple studies, not from a negative mindset. I am basing my opinion, in part, on the 2006 Fair Housing Trends Report (check it out at www.nationalfairhousing.org). The National Fair Housing Alliance conducted a multi-year study in which they found that discriminatory practices by real estate agents were "striking and pervasive". For example, 20% of the time African-American and Latino testers were refused appointments or offered very limited service (note that the testing was done in matched pairs, so that socio-economic status, finances, etc. were equal for both the white and protected class testers).

Of particular interest to us in this discussion is the fact that 87% of the testers were steered to neighborhoods on the basis of race and/or national origin by real estate agents. Can you imagine what the statistics would be without Fair Housing Laws?

As Qouted in the 2006 Fair Housing Trends Report..

"One of the most blatant findings of NFHA’s investigation was the use of schools as a
proxy for the racial composition of neighborhoods. In many instances, real estate
agents intentionally steered White families away from primarily African-American and
Latino school districts. Their intention is revealed in the illegal comments they made to
potential homeseekers."

"The blatancy of the discrimination in agent behavior was astounding. In every
metropolitan area tested, some agents told testers that they knew it was illegal for them
to steer or make comments based on race or national origin, but the agents in question
then went on deliberately to steer or make illegal comments."

"Although NFHA estimates that at least 3.7 million instances of housing discrimination occur
annually, fewer than one percent of these complaints are reported."

That seems like a rather stupid statement. Where did they get their estimates?

I have doubts about the study whose praises you sing as if the final authority. Studies are like polls, you can get the numbers you want as long as you ask the right questions in the right way. the same question phrased differently and in a different order will support the other side of the argument.

Pardon me for being a cynic but I truely doubt those numbers. I base this on the agents I know and pure common sense. The bottom line comes down to dollars! Here is my example to back my position.
My Example:
Couple A belonging to a protected class and couple B without the benefit of protected class status engage me as their agent. The are both new to the area and have pre-approval letters of $200K and are wanting something between $175K and $200K. Neither couple has expressed a preference for a particular school district or area.
The first thing for any agent is going to do is pull all actives in the area in the $175K to $205K range. The will narrow from that list.
Now applying the study mindset to couple A would place them in neighborhoods where the average home price was less than 115K....You do the math! Are you gonna be making your commission based on a $115K or are you gonna be wanting commission on the $175-200K range?


Those housing studies are done by people that must justify their very existance by showing the market is not fair! Testors are NOT attempting to be fair! Their intent from the beginning is steer you to get the negative results they are looking for! Without negative findings they would all have to go out and get real jobs!

It doesn't make sense to me... If a client says, "I don't want to live on a cul-de-sac" it's perfectly legal for us to only show homes that are not located on a cul-de-sac.

However, if a client says, "I don't want to live in a neighborhood that is predominantly white and Christian because we prefer that our children attend school with people of their own race and religion" we have to play stupid and disregard their wishes altogether.

I fully understand not trying to "steer" them toward a location that we may "think" they'd prefer or that we simply would like to see them in, but to be forbidden to show them what THEY WANT is just rediculous in my opinion. But, we will follow the law regardless of how stupid we think the law is.

Although 234,567 women in Jacksonville think that I am the sexiest man alive, only one has admitted it.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. It a form of entrapment. But unfortunately, we have to comply. I am fairly certain I had a tester one time, and it was just awful.

Paul, I was a tester many years ago in a study on discrimination and I can tell you that I did not get paid based upon the results. I did not try to steer the results nor did the other testers I was working with. I'm not saying that all studies are done perfectly and without bias, but your stance on this seems pretty extreme and I don't see what evidence you are basing your opinion on other than conjecture.

Paul Oaks Wrote: "Here is my example to back my position.
My Example:
Couple A belonging to a protected class and couple B without the benefit of protected class status engage me as their agent. The are both new to the area and have pre-approval letters of $200K and are wanting something between $175K and $200K. Neither couple has expressed a preference for a particular school district or area.
The first thing for any agent is going to do is pull all actives in the area in the $175K to $205K range. The will narrow from that list.
Now applying the study mindset to couple A would place them in neighborhoods where the average home price was less than 115K....You do the math! Are you gonna be making your commission based on a $115K or are you gonna be wanting commission on the $175-200K range?"

OK class... Can you find any logic in this argument?

The above mentioned 'survey' lacked many of the required controls for objectivity and is not valid as evidence of descrimination.

It is evidence, however, that my (required) college course work in Social Sciences Research Methods has finally paid off! Seriously, my professor would have flunked the folks behind that half-arsed study.

Of course, even if it was 100% accurate, it still isn't evidence that I am a racist and need controling by the government.

So Auburn, Since you are not a murderer and you have no intention of killing anyone, then there should be no laws against murder ..because you don't need controling by the government. Right?

Paul can correct me if I misunderstand his reasoning but this is what I took from his example:

Couple A can afford the $200K home but (according to the study results) the agent takes them only to neighborhoods that are of lower value homes because they are made up of people of the same protected class as Couple A. He could have taken them to the higher value homes but because he is a "racist" he chooses to try and sell them a lower priced home.

I think Paul is pointing out that the vast majority of agents are business-minded and are going to try to make as much $$ as they can... why, then, would an agent 'steer' Couple A toward the lower priced homes? It just doesn't make sense.

Apples and oranges, MDH. There is a vast difference between having socially reprehensible thoughts/beliefs and killing people. There is also a vast difference between not wanting to work with certain people and killing them.

..."It just doesn't make sense." .... because agents don't discriminate and racism is a non-existent problem that liberals made up so that their programs can be funded. RIGHT?

There may be discrimination and racism in the world and probably always will be. But we are different in that we have to abide by license law and the public doesn't. If you stop a stranger on the street and ask him what the racial make-up of the neighborhood is, he is allowed to answer your question. We can't.

"There is also a vast difference between not wanting to work with certain people and killing them."

So it's ok to rob people of their dignity and their humanity and their freedom to live where they want, as long as you don't kill them?

It sounds like you are starting to understand what the government laws are doing. If a protected class (say a "widget") WANTS to live near other widgets, I cannot show him homes near other widgets. The government says I must show him all homes, not just the home in areas WHERE HE WANTS TO LIVE.

Do you get the idea? I'm not trying to make him live near other widgets, HE WANTS TO LIVE THERE. But, I'm not allowed to help hime find where he wants to be. My feelings towards widgets aren't even considered. Maybe I hate them, maybe I love them. Hell, maybe I'm a widget myself. But, woe unto me if I tell him, "yes, other widgets live here too."

You seem to be getting way off base. Who on this board ever said anything about robbing people of anything at all? Who is even suggesting that people not have the freedom to live where they want to live? It's quite the opposite. I'm talking about helping people find what they DO WANT and to live where they DO WANT TO LIVE.

That side is a problem I have worked with a member of a protected class that sincerely wanted to live in a neighborhood with others of the same race. He was new to the area and wanted to make new friends and acquaintances. He was very frustrated with me that I could not provide that information. It was difficult for me to not be able to help him. I don't know the answer. On the other side of the coin, when we have a jerk for a client we can choose not to work with them. If that jerk happens to be a minority, I feel like I have to work with them anyway.

Huh?!?
Where are coming up with this stuff? I'm sure there are agents who discriminate. There may be some who are racists even. (Although that term is often used incorrectly as 'racism' means believing that one race is actually superior to another race. Discrimination means choosing one thing, person, race, religion, etc. over others. For instance, I 'discriminated' against every other woman in the world when I chose to marry and remain faithful to my wife, who happens to be a redhead. This doesn't mean, however, that I think she is superior to all other women... just that she is the best one for me in my opinion. Why are you throwing around the word/charge of "racism"? That is not the issue here - or, at least, that's not what I saw as the issue. (BTW: these statements do not deny the 'existence' of racism but rather that I don't think that is what is being discussed in this thread.)

AuburnFootball, What survey design would you have recommended for the study? I have my Ph.D. in the social sciences as well and was hired by my professors on research study design after I graduated. I cannot think of a better design than the one they used. What makes you think it is "half-arsed"?

I wonder if all the complaints about research methods are really frustration with the impact of the Fair Housing Laws on our work as agents. Yes, it makes our work more difficult. It prevents us from pleasing our clients when they want us to give guidance as to where they should live. However, surely most of us can see the value of these laws and go beyond the inconvenience they cause us and our clients to see the how they serve the greater good of society?

TimandSusan,

Bingo!! Got it on the first try! Obviously MDHomes2Go is not that quick on the uptake.

GailSusan,
You as an indivdual testor may have had nothing to prove but those running the test do. Most testors are private individuals(mainly attorneys) who are hoping to find a violation so they can sue and be awarded the fine.

MDHomes2Go,
Where are you coming up with your rantings? Who in this thread mentioned killing other than you?

Paul, your argument is flawed because you make a faulty assumption that racists often make. Obviously you and Tim think alike.

Now you're actually calling me a racist?! Wow! If it weren't so laughable, I'd be offended. You have NO CLUE what you're talking about.

Tim,
The only joke here is MDHomes2Go. Typical liberal BS that when in doubt cry discrimination and call the other person a racist! I think Michael Savage said it right in his book " Liberalism is a Mental Disorder".

Picture MDHomes2Go sputtering there in front of his keyboard rapidly going over the latest talking points for a whitty response...unable to find one his only alternative is the call us racist... he is even too stupid to realize that the topic is discrimination and not racism. Sorry to disappoint him but I am a capitalist and not a racist. I have that desire to sell a buyer what they want in the price they want within the law!

[/QB][/QUOTE]

Whew... I thought I was in the twilight zone for awhile there. I had to go back and re-read all the posts. Seems this "racism" thing was brought up by MDH way back near the beginning and I didn't really pick up on it. Obviously he/she has an agenda that he/she is trying to force into this thread. While "race" identifies one of the "protected" groups, it isn't the only and certainly not the only one I thought about.

The issue (I thought) had to do with being allowed by law to meet the needs of our clients as best we are able. I had in mind a buyer who is black and wanted to be in a predominantly black neighborhood. She felt that it is hard enough being a minority in society and even harder to be a minority in school. She preferred that her son attend a predominantly black school. While I understood her concerns for her son, I had to explain that I am not allowed to discuss the racial makeup of a neighborhood. I suggested that she drive through the neighborhood on different days and different times of day and to visit the school he would be enrolled in. If that makes me a racist then god help us all - I'm totally baffled! (BTW: I think this client would be shocked and amazed that anyone called me a racist.)

Tim, Actually that is the definition of racism and exactly what the Fair Housing Laws are trying to avoid. Just because someone is in a protected class doesn't mean their actions aren't racist. Your client was deciding where to live based on the color of the skin of people in that neighborhood. It is her perogative to do so, but not ours. Yes, life can be hard when the color of your skin is dark and others in the neighborhood are light. It doesn't have to be that way, however, and I know that from personal experience. And, giving advice as to where people should live based on the color of their skin shouldn't be perpetuated by our profession -- even when our client want it and even when they are in the protected classes.

I'm surprised that more people on this BB don't see the value of the Fair Housing Laws. It's a little bit scary.

Today's Topic: How to decipher code words and spot a racist in any crowd.

Pious Paul Wrote:
"Couple A belonging to a protected class and couple B without the benefit of protected class status engage me as their agent."
-So, to be treated fairly is a "benefit" huh Paul.

"They are both new to the area and have pre-approval letters of $200K and are wanting something between $175K and $200K....Now applying the study mindset to couple A would place them in neighborhoods where the average home price was less than 115K...."

I guess the assumption is that if they want to live among "their kind" you couldn't find them a neighborhood in the $175-$200k. Your automatic assumption is that you'll have to take them to the neighborhood priced less than $115k....over to the other side of the tracks huh Paul.

Yeah I know "you are a capitalist" and "you only see green"

If one group is afforded special benefits (hence the name 'protected class') by the government, then they do enjoy a benefit, deserved or not, over people not in a protected class. That isn't being treated fairly, that is preferential treatment.

So you are saying that the "Fair Housing Laws" gives preferential treatment to the "protected class"?
Because the law forces you to treat all people the same, that somehow is preferential treatment to the "protected class"?
Auburn, do you guys still have regular meetings around the campfire? Where is it, I would like to come watch ... from a safe distance.

Wow. Is everyone who disagrees with you a racist, or just people on the Internet who you don't have to look in they eye and say it?

No, not everyone who disagrees with me, but the views expressed here by a number of people just go to show why fair housing laws became necessary in the first place.

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.


#1. She wanted a particular neighborhood and demographic makeup.

#2. I followed the law

#3. What's the problem here? On the one hand I am called a racist for helping my client while adhering to the laws. On the other hand.... oh, forget it - this is getting totally rediculous and I'm sleepy. Goodnight all. :rolleyes:

Okay, one more thing before I turn in.

Where/when did I give any advice on where anyone should live? You people read WAY MORE INTO THIS than is actually there. Go back and read what I said... at no time did I provide ANY ADVICE ON WHERE SHE SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT LIVE. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn where anyone lives. It's their own damned business.... not mine. My business is to help them find the home that THEY WANT. Geeeeez.

MDHomes2Go,
You are so pathetic it is beyond words.
You hide behind your computer and call people a racist because they disagree with your words. You are not worth carrying on this any further and by now everyone is aware of the agenda you are pushing. So keep calling everyone a racist if it makes you feel important but in reality it just makes you look ignorant.

Yes it is all about the green. If you keep it about the green and withing existing law you will never get in trouble. Leave the social engineering to the liberals who think they know more than everyone else. Serve your clients with in the law by selling them homes in the price range they want and in the neighborhood they wish to reside!

I don't understand the name-calling and making generalizations smearing "liberals." What's that all about?

I do have a legitimate question: say there is an area that is less than desirable, because of drug houses, or other danger . . . when someone from out of town finds housing in that area on the internet and asks to see it (because it is substantialy cheaper than everything else on the market for good reason), what do you do?

I don't want to go into that area in the daytime. The potential buyer had time to see the property at night, and requested to do so. I do not wish to put myself in harm's way by going with a complete stranger to a very scary place . . . what is the ethical response?

What I did was set up an internet search for housing in the price ranges he requested, hoping he would see other places that were preferable.

Again, what is the correct response?

Must I show property in dangerous areas, even ghettos? If someone from out of town wants to move into a ghetto without knowing the area, do I have any responsiblity to educate the buyer, or is that simply "steering." When I don't say anything and the buyer buys in the ghetto and later has issues with it, then what?

And what about just generally not wanting me to put myself in harm's way.

Please advise.

Tough call on this one! Could you be accused of "steering"? The answer is yes would it be true? Now that is another question. If you are consistent and refuse to show anyone homes in that area then you should be ok. If I felt unsafe going into a particular area I would definately not show houses there to anyone!

I, for one, am shocked at how many agents are willing to put their rear ends on the line by actually answering (directly or indirectly) any of these questions! Do you guys actually spend time assessing racial make-up of neighborhoods? I would not touch this with a ten foot pole.

Example: A client HAS to purchase a home in a certain elementary school boundary. An agent promptly finds them a house and it closes. Buyer goes to register at the school and finds out they are "full" in the grades of the buyer's children. Guess who gets sued? THE AGENT.

What should the agent have done? Before showing a single house, direct the buyer to check with the admistration office or specific school they are interested in the determine availability.

Why would an agent speak to the question of racial makeup of a neighborhood, or anything similar? That could change overnight! Never give an opinion you will be possibly later called on to justify. Holy smokes!

Working with many relocation clients, they rely on the agent to "cover their bases". This is why it is IMPERATIVE that the agent hold a buyer counseling session, explain fair housing laws, explain that the agent could lose their license, and frankly "My ghetto may not be your ghetto, so I will not be making those judgement calls for you. I would prefer you not even ask. If you are concerned about anything related, feel free to contact local police departments, school districts, city hall, whomever you please. It is recommended that you also drive by different neighborhoods at several times during the day and also weekends."

I also would be very leary of directing any clients to any online website. Those cannot be assumed to be updated or accurate. For example, sending a buyer to the online sex offender website may give the buyer a false sense of security if the police department is actually more up to date and lo and behold a sex offender lives next door now.

The benefits of the mandatory buyer counseling session are too numerous to list. If during that consultation you realize you are dealing with a difficult client who doesn't give a flip about you losing your license or not - guess what? Don't work with them! lol Simple as pie and then you don't get caught up in uncomfortable situations while out (wasting) your time showing houses to these people.

Changeagent - this has happened to me numerous times. NEVER go into an unsafe area alone. Always tell the secretary or someone where you are going, what time and when you expect to be back. If you are taking a buyer you don't know (and haven't done a buyer consultation), get a photocopy of their drivers license explaining this is a security policy with your office. What I have done is arranged for a male agent to follow me to the property and accompany me on the showing. I say nothing to the buyer - they can put two and two together if they want. The buyer may LOVE that area - like I said earlier, my ghetto may not be their ghetto. Also have a "code" situation in place - if you arrive at a property and between the buyer and the area you just don't feel comfortable going in a vacant home, let's say, guess what? Your keysafe suddenly isn't working! No one said you have to go in that property and show it. Always follow your wiggle nerve, your intuition. The "code" can be this: "Oh my, something is wrong with this keysafe. Let me call for assistance." When you then call the secretary (or whomever) you repeat your "code" sentence - "Mary, my keysafe isn't working at such and such a property, could you send someone out to assist?"

You develop the "code" and if the receipient gets that call, they KNOW there may be trouble.

Cherir, thanks again. I can always count on you to give a well reasoned response. That was right on the money.
GailSusan, you are a great example of how to conduct yourself and your business and your clients are fortunate to have you as their agent. You know I am thankful you are both on this board.
Tim, I never called you a racist, but if you defend one you could be guilty by association.
Paul, You are probably the one person on this thread that I could safely say has at least one pointy hat in their closet... Well maybe the other guy from Texas too.
Admin, when you read this thread please note who took us down this road. Your moderator Paul particularly likes the word "stupid". He apparently has a very limited vocabulary.

I suppose you just see things in a different way than I do. Does the psychology term "projection" mean anything to you? :rolleyes:

Changeagent,

When I sign an Exclusive Buyers Agreement with a client I clearly define the geographic areas I will help them find a property in. I don't include the entire city, I specify a market area. I have to know the area well in order to feel comfortable representing my buyer and I don't know the high crime areas of my city as I don't go into them. It would be unethical of me to represent a client in an area that I am not familiar with.

That doesn't entirely get rid of the problem, however, because I know of drug dealers who live in certain homes within my market area and I'm aware of the criminal activities due to my involvement with block watch activities. My approach has been to work really hard with the police and community to get rid of the drug dealers, but the situation could have come up where I would be asked to list a home next door or I would represent a buyer who wanted to buy next door. It's confusing to clients that we have to disclose environmental problems nearby, zoning changes, and other neighborhood issues, but when it comes to criminal activity, we can't say anything except go to the Police Department. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this?

Having moved into a new area a time or two myself, I can tell you I would be royally pissed if the agent I was relying on "allowed" me to purchase a home in a ghetto.

In the town I live in now, there is one section that looks absolutely adorable and is in a naturally beautiful area . . . one small problem, people are shot and stabbed there on a daily basis(well, not quite but it is not safe to walk there let alone live there).

What if I saw some of those "bargain" properties on the internet, called up a local agent and had a counseling session in which I said price was everything. Then asked to see homes in that area. What would you expect the agent to do? Do you really imagine that the agent should just not say anything about what s/he knows about the area? It is really funny that on the other hand, if you know anything at all about a property you are bound by law to disclose it, but on this issue, you cannot volunteer anything. You cannot disclose it.

So the poor soul from out-of-town buys the place and is stabbed the first day out on a nice stroll. Does the agent blink an eye, or is it just "business as usual."

Speaking of stupid, I would say if this is how the agent is supposed to respond, that would be stupid.

Comments?

Cherir,
I do agree with you except on website referal. The school site I recommend is the IL Dept of Ed's site and if you would have read everything you would also have seen where I said go visit the school in person.


MDHomes2Go,
Yes I do like stupid especially when it is used in conjunction with you. Each of your posts just proves it right on target. Calling me a racist is just your attempt to compensate for a lack of honor and integrity as you lack both traits. You make accusations with no basis in fact or reality but I hate to break this to you the rantings of your own little reality are not the truth. Maybe you should seek some counseling for you delusions!

Paul, Please review the forum's rules. As a moderator, it seems to me that you should not only enforce the rules, but follow them. "Stupid" is not an acceptable adjective to use towards another forum member. No one should call another person names on the BB, but as a moderator, you should try to live up to a higher standard and model the behavior you would like to see others follow.

For those who are calling people racists or, at least, insinuating others are racists - or who are accusing others of not following the Fair Housing Laws where there is absolutely no evidence of such:

2a. Freudian Projection
The following is a collection of definitions of projection from orthodox psychology texts. In this system the distinct mechanism of projecting own unconscious or undesirable characteristics onto an opponent is called Freudian Projection.

"A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."


"The externalisation of internal unconscious wishes, desires or emotions on to other people. So, for example, someone who feels subconsciously that they have a powerful latent homosexual drive may not acknowledge this consciously, but it may show in their readiness to suspect others of being homosexual."


"Attributing one's own undesirable traits to other people or agencies, e.g., an aggressive man accuses other people of being hostile."


"The individual perceives in others the motive he denies having himself. Thus the cheat is sure that everyone else is dishonest. The would-be adulterer accuses his wife of infidelity."


"People attribute their own undesirable traits onto others. An individual who unconsciously recognises his or her aggressive tendencies may then see other people acting in an excessively aggressive way."


"Projection is the opposite defence mechanism to identification. We project our own unpleasant feelings onto someone else and blame them for having thoughts that we really have."

Ahhh Tim, Thanks very much for the insight. I feel so much at peace with myself now that I understand.

It's no skin off of my back, but I wonder *why* Paul is a moderator - I think he needs a break or something. I can't even imagine how an adult could think it was appropriate to call another adult "stupid," but then I don't understand why people stab and shoot each other, either (getting back to my last post which was virtually ignored).

I still would like to hear answers or opinions on my scenario if anyone has any.

Changeagent--I don't think criminals are a protected class, and I don't really understand if we are or are not allowed to disclose the fact of criminal activity. The few times this has come up, I usually refer the clients to the local police department for a report on the area. I myself would like to learn more about the subject, and if anybody can shed some light on it, I would like to hear it too. But that may be changing the subject.

Why is that changing the subject?

My scenario is about someone asking to see property in an area the agent has deemed unsafe or undesirable. There are at least two issues here - one is the safety issue and the other is not disclosing what you know, which could really hurt the client in the long run (if you allow them to purchase property that appears to be desirable but really isn't) - the issue is disclosure - in every other case you would disclose every last detail, but in this case you would be racist, classist, or accused of steering if you steered the client away from the undesirable area - the area that might look nice on the surface, but is really dangerous.

I mean you could direct the client to check police records, but why would you be doing that - you wouldn't do that for every other property - in this case, say you said, "If you would like to know crime statistics, check with the local police department," and then they said to you, "Why are you telling me that? Is there a problem in this neighborhood?" What are you supposed to say? What if it is a gang neighborhood? Are gangs in a protected class?

Are prostitutes, druggies, and other "undesirables" in a protected class?

What am I missing?

I agree with you, I feel the same way.
I don't know the answer.

Good question Changeagent. I would not hesitate to tell you that a particular area has a reputed crime problem,,, But I have to be consistent. I would also tell the next guy who comes along the same thing. You might choose not to live there, but it might be perfect for the next guy. The low price might be enough to overcome the occasional mugging
Agents get in trouble when they try to "guide" and "direct" certain types of people to certain types of areas because they believe that's where they belong. Or they provide different levels of service to different races or classes of people with otherwise similar qualifications.
It's fairly simple. Treat people fairly.

MD: I don't think it is that simple. We all understand the concept of fairness - it is putting it into practice that is tricky. Your second sentence is a little simplistic. I am sure there are those agents that have the time on their hands to try to engineer society in the way you described, but that is not what we are talking about here.

If I tell every single person who inquires about a certain area that it has a "reputed crime problem," as you suggested, why is that not steering people OUT of that area - keeping them away from an area that they otherwise might buy in?

Changeagent, I can tell you the area has a reputed crime problem, I can tell you the area has a high occurance of radon, or termite. I can tell you it's in a flood zone, I can tell you lots of things that can be independently verified, and it's up to you to check it out. If you are ok with radon, high crime, or termite, then fine, let's write it up. If not you pass on it.

What I won't discuss is the racial make-up of the neighborhood. You'll have to do your own research and tell me where you want to live. If you tell me you only want to live in Trump Estates, that's fine, and that's all i'm gonna show you until you tell me otherwise, or we discuss it and you decide other areas might be suitable too.
If you tell me you only want to live in a "white" area, i'll tell you to get back to me when you figure out where those areas are, because I have no idea! and as Cherir says "my ghetto might not be your ghetto" I am NOT gonna pick them out for you based on my subjective opinion. I am not gonna get into a discussion about Fair Housing Law either... I just won't discuss Race, Religion or Politics with you!... At least not while we are doing business. If we become friends later then I can tell you the error of your ways!

Well, that makes sense.

But what would you tell an out-of-town prospect who spotted some *bargains* on the web and wants you to show them in the evenings,when he is in town for two days at a conference (and he is definitely moving into the area).

It depends.
If I am the listing agent, my duty is to the seller, so if you like my price and want to buy it, I'm selling it to you. It's up to you to do your homework. That being said, I wouldn't take a listing in an area I didn't feel was relatively safe.

If I am your Buyers Agent, I will discuss the pros and cons, positives and negatives. If you still want it, i'll sell it to you, but i'll only take you there if I am comfortable going there at any time of the day or night.

Whether it's a black, white or hispanic neighborhood, it makes no difference. If it's dangerous I won't go there. Crime is crime and you'll be just as dead if you get shot in Chinatown, Little Italy or Suburbia.

Hmmmmm.

GailSusan,
So I cannot use stupid on someone that finds it necessary to call people racist and klan members but it is just fine for that person to make those types of comments. You failed to make comment on that! What a surprise!!! Perhaps you should try the concept of being fair in your criticism and I would be more inclined to take that criticism.

Paul, I'm not the moderator, you are. You took on the role of being fair and ensuring the rules of the forum are upheld.

changeagent and MDHomes2Go, I think the main reason that we as agents are advised not to talk about crime statistics or schools directly is that if a client bases their decision to buy a home based upon perceived safety or that their children will be able to go to a particular school these are things we have no control over.

Let's say that we encourage our clients to find a home east of Main Street because it is safer and then a bullet goes through their front window the first night they move in -- there is a potential liability issue because we represented this area as being safer. It's the same with the school system. I always put down "Per Board of Education" for the school district for liability reasons. If redistricting occurs or the school burns down and the kids have to go to another school, you don't want your clients saying, "I moved here because my agent told me my kids would be able to go to this school." Things that are beyond our control can be factored in by our clients in making their decision to buy a home, but we shouldn't bring them up.

Time to cool down, everyone. First of all, Paul has done a good job for us for a long time, and I do not believe anyone thinks of him the way he has been described in one of these posts. This is an extremely volatile subject, although I do not understand why it is continuing. The solution to all these questions should be very simple...obey the law as each interprets it based on their education, experience, and support system. Why can't we just kill this thread and go on to another one. Let's not all get crazy over a subject that should not be discussed any further. We all know right from wrong, we know who we have to answer to, and we all know what is expected of us as professionals. Each of us has our own moral code, but we share the same laws, rules, regs...I hope each interprets them to the best of his or her ability, because we are all ultimately responsbile for our own actions, first to our higher power, and then to our assorted regulator agencies. Nothing is happening in this thread now to benefit anyone, so can we please close it.

Darlene, I would like to respectfully disagree with you as I think this is an interesting thread, especially the most recent discussion between changeagent and MDHomes2Go.

While I would like to see the emotions toned down and the name calling stopped, I think the subject is an important one and the interpretation of Fair Housing Laws is not a straightforward one and therefore deserves scrutiny, reflection and discussion.

GailSusan: This thread has been going on since May 11, and it has become very heated. Everyone has already given their primary opinions. Threads generally start falling apart big time when they have been this hot for this long.

We are in the housing industry, so of course Fair Housing Laws are of the utmost importance. We need them, and I'm sure everyone who posted wants to abide by them...it's the particular way everyone interprets these laws that is in dispute here. You are correct that the subject does deserve scrutiny, reflection and discussion, but...it looks rather hopeless on this thread right now. Maybe those who do still have questions could ask their broker or call their regulatory agency. Even better--maybe they could take a course in Fair Housing Laws. That type course would not hurt any of us if we have the time to take it.

Well, I've taken the Fair Housing Law course and it doesn't address all the issues brought up here. I think this is a fascinating discussion and if you are tired of reading the thread, there are plenty of others on this forum that you can look at instead.

I take exception to the idea of "closing a thread down" because it has become "heated." Just the fact that it has become heated illustrates the importance of continuing on, as there are issues yet to be understood or resolved. When issues or subjects "cycle" it is because they have not been processed. Once something is processed (i.e., come to natural completion), then it will be done. If a particularly hot topic is abandoned, it is not because it has been processed, but because a hot spot has been reached. The same problems will resurface on another thread. Nothing goes away just because it is suppressed. My views are informed by the study of a particular school of psychology.

I wonder what prompted your response, Darlene? It seems that Paul and MD can take care of themselves.

What prompted my response was that I wanted to post my opinion.

Surpressed? After 135 posts and ten days, I woudl hardly call this a surpressed issue.

Uh, oh--I just had another opinion crop up: One option to finding out how to handle this issue of whether to provide info to clients might be to look at other sources. You may be able to find out whether to say you don't know, say you can't say, or refer clients to info sites just by asking your broker. If you ARE a broker & don't yet have an opinion, ask the appropriate regulatory authorities. If you don't like your broker's opinion, change brokers. If you don't like your regulatory agency's opinion, then you have a decision to make--whether to operate their way or your own way. If your regulatory agency does not have an answer, then...welcome to real estate. If you already have your mind made up and believe you can change someone else's opinion to more closely match yours, I guess keep posting on here...but why not try to make these posts more informative and less confrontational. You can't sway someone else's opinion if they are afraid of being called a name if they don't agree with you. Finally, before you form an opinion, if you are so inclined, look at it with your own conscience and ask God. Complicated? Yep!

Given time, we probably will find that our different opinions are not all that different... all we want is to serve our clients so we can make a living, while not contributing to the problem.

Another opinion: It is not enough to not contribute to the problem of racism. We have to fight it, also. In order to fight it, we must first believe in our hearts that it is wrong. I have not read anything posted here that sounds like it was posted by a racist. These posts are from agents wanting to make a living. I do believe that someone out there has a fair solution to this problem of providing information to clients. I'm going to go see what I can find.

One final note: The small business person (that's us, folks) has to feed the family first, and then help society. That is sad, but look at corporate American. The large companies support MD and all the other good organizations, and the small business owner throws a few dollars in the red kettle at Christmas and buys the few employees he has a turkey at Christmas. I'm just saying that most can't lose a client like I did - by telling him....well, it's on record somewhere in this forum. Anyway, he won't be using me because I won't pick his special little subdivisions for him. But then, I don't have 5 kids to feed, dress, and eventually send to college.

Jusr one more opinion, please: Let's not judge each other on a few heated posts. That is what is wrong with these posts when they get like this. People can't see your face or your body language. They are judging you just on a few words hastily posted. So it is so easy to get mad at someone unjustifiably.

Okay, changeagent - I'm done...thanks for listening. By the way, duh, what did you mean when you said your views were prompted by a particular school of psychology? Just asking.

Darlene, That would be very helpful as even in my GRI classes, I haven't received any pragmatic advice on this issue. Would you be willing to share what you find with us?

Okay, I found a little something out.

My Chamber of Commerce has a ton of charts and graphs on their web site filled with info WE CANNOT USE. So, I called Chamber and she jumped right in and said they give out nothing but a map and a phone book if client calls them or comes in office. If they stumble onto the web site, so be it. But I am sure none of us want our clients to form opinions using charts and graphs.

I called the school district. They said, very confidently, that Realtors should tell clients, if asked, that the elementary school, etc., for a home in this location is _____________ school. If client asks about school, we can tell them "you can visit that school in person for any bus schedule, enrollment dates, that kind of info." If client asks about rating, also refer them to school.

Okay, the school employee I talked to was not an expert on fair housing, I am sure, but I'll bet she knows a lot about it. She did not even hesitate to answer me when I was trying to word my question to her...she just jumped right in like she had answered it a thousand times.

Now I am going to MLS and see if the "buyer copy" of the listing has the schools listed on it. If so, there you go. Be right back.

I am closing this topic since it is 10 pages long and many of the posts are not on topic.Feel Free to start a new topic should anyone desire.