I've interviewed with several agencies in the area & I'm torn between KW & C21. The broker at C21 said that KW is a great company, but their plan doesn't work in this market (I'm in CT). This particular C21 office is #1 in the area and really produces, so much so, that if you work there & don't produce, the broker will fire you. I like KW in that they're supposed to offer great training, but the C21 broker also said that they don't help agents to get listings/leads; you're on your own (which I thought agents were on their own anyway). But, I'm not sure how I feel about this profit-sharing plan. I had someone tell me the other day (a KW agent in NC) to put her name down as a "sponsor" if I sign with KW in CT. What exactly is a "sponsor?"

See my thread in the "Agents & Brokers" forum. I interviewed KW yesterday and was very impressed. The training that they offer is quite lucrative IMO. I haven't interviwed C21 yet, so I can't compare the two, but right now KW is at the top of my list.

As for what C21 says about KW and leads, well, I think that applies to any broker. I would be cautious of any broker that promises that they will provide you with leads.

ya read the thread in agents and broker forum. I spoke with an agent from KW today and she said that at her KW they strongly encourage recruiting other people so you can be in the profit sharing plan but it isn't a must. She did tell me just like everyone else has, training is great there. The profit-sharing scared me off 2 but training is important. Just remember that every office is different so interview several places.

I signed up with KW last month. I just completed 1 week of new agent training. It was great!! In my office I will be continuing a 2 hour 4 day a week training for the next 2 months (not 100% of length). I done 2 weeks of that training already. Just to be trained is worth it to me. In my office the trainer was a mega agent from AZ who was doing 60 transactions a year. They also have online traning on their website. What I've learning is like gold, and I am not even a new agent. I became agent in 1998, and was doing about 13 transasctions a year in Southern California. There are several other people in my training class like me who is experienced and moved from other companies. I am envious of the new agents who are starting there, they have such a good start.
Regarding the recruiting, my office has told me how it works, and the benefits, however they did tell me not to make it my focus. They said if they were doing their job I would be happy there, and I would naturally tell others. Its not a big thing I have to do.

Thanks

Bottom line is to interview as many brokerages as possible and then make your decision from there. Just make sure the place you choose is not a high pressure place to produce and it offers GREAT training!!!! Your first year is critical!

I second the fact to read the thread on KW in the other forum as I posted in there as well. I am a new agent and have had my license for like 3 weeks and I interviewed about 4 different brokers including a local C21, which this C21 is top 10 in the nation. Anyways, I went with KW and couldnt be more happy about my decision. I feel very at home there and everyone is a great help. The training is fantastic, it just seems the KW philosophy is all about YOU the agent! As for the recruiting and profit share, thats just and added perk if you want to recruit. Its hardley ever discussed or pushed at my office!!! Hope that helps....

bambam.

I know both franchises well. Obviously, I am biased.

Here my perception of the key CENTURY 21 System advantages:

* World's largest & most recognized & most preferred real estate brand. Every consumer survey (and I mean every) shows CENTURY 21 as by far the consumer favorite. It has nearly universal recognition (last year's consumer survey showed CENTURY 21 at over 70% recognition with KW at about 4%).

* Utterly unmatched training. New agents start with CREATE 21 which has been named for 7 years running to Training Magazines top 100 corporate training programs. No other real estate program is on the list. It teaches agents how to prospect and turn lookers into contracts. And, it is just the beginning. The Virtual Solution Series offers over 200 hours of free 1.5 hour courses available over the web. They are taught live (live instructor, screen looks like a Powerpoint slide, and students can ask questions). Topics range from how to use Microsoft Word, to working with FSBOs, to Building a Listing Presentation. Plus, one can take a host of NAR designation courses including Accredited Buyer Representative (ABR) and Certified Residential Specialist (CRS). On top of this is any in-house training offered by the individual franchise.

* A superb national convention. Next week, in Las Vegas, over 10,000 of us will gather to hear Colin Powell as the keynoter and Howie Mandell as the entertainment. Over 120 classes will be taught.

* Power of television advertising. The franchise will spend in excess of $70 million on national television. Each spot drives consumers to century21.com where they can search properties and connect with an agent. Also, we have Spotrunner which allows you to build local television ads to push listings and promote yourself --- all on either local broadcast or cable tv.

*Superior technology. 21Online.com, our franchise intranet site offers agents a tool to build a complete business plan, send Egreetings to consumers, three free monthly newsletters (including one for high-end consumers and another for commercial property investors) which can e-mailed or mailed to your Sphere of Influence, a mailing resource (postcards, etc.), a basic contact manager, the ability to upgrade your listings on CENTURY21.COM with up to 20 pictures, build a slide show with narration and music, write descriptions in english or spanish and attach virtual tours. There is much, much more. Best of all, it is FREE!

* A complete referral network with guarantees the payment of referral fees and access to over 10,000 offices worldwide in several brands.

* Access to discounts for you and your consumer on things ranging from computers, hotels, rental cars, travel, cell phone service, etc.

* The best awards program in the industry with awards for both production and quality service. Qualifying agents get to attend the annual Top Agent retreats to learn from their peers & a host of national instructors.

My issues with KW are the lack of recognition and the shallow technology base. The training, ironically, came mostly from CENTURY 21 (Their new agent training is based on a program called 21Plus -- it was abandoned in 2003. KW's management training is based on a decade-old CENTURY 21 program called Orbit that has little to do with the current version).

Profit sharing really doesn't matter much either way. The average KW agents' check is rather small --- a bit over a $100 a year.

Staggart - great post, I appreciate the perspective.

It sounds like you've embraced the C21 model, and that's good. Would you say that most of your C21 peers do the same? The C21 office that I visited yesterday seemed to focus on "we're so big they HAVE TO come to us!" rather than training and solid skills. Needless to say, that's not what a newly-licensed agent like myself is looking for.

Go with KW...I should have chose them, instead of other company.

I worked at a C21 just like that. I got nowhere fast. When brokerages get cocky and say "we're so big people have no choice." they are generally content to sit on their laruals. And if they are that fat and happy, what kind of investment are they willing to make in YOU? None probably.

I just started interviewing brokers too and found Keller Williams to be the best fit for me with the training and technology offered. Maybe I will check out C21 this week and see for myself..

The key to understand with real estate companies is to understand that they are not template franchises like Macdonalds where every decision from the sign on the outside to the ingredients in the food are dictated by the franchisor.

Rather, real estate franchises are primarily the purchase of a logo. But, each has different backend resources. What I described was what I believe is an accurate description of the tools of each franchise.

Whether specific tools are used is predicated on the individual office. Sometimes, an owner operator only uses the logo and ignores the rest of the tools.

I, personally, like having the biggest/best toolbox possible.

I started with C21 as a new agent and did not like it at all. The training at c21 online was horrible. It was very basic stuff and i got nothing out of it. I think starting at C21 slowed my career as a new agent. I moved over to REMAX and love it. I hear very good things about KW as well. I do not know anybody that started at C21 that stayed longer than a year.

smgardner --

I highly disgree with your description of the CENTURY 21 System training.

I have a very strong team --- built around the training available --- CREATE 21 (new agents), BLAST (prospecting coaching), Virtual Solution Series (short classes on an array of topics) and the live convention available at convention.

I'm at our national convention today and I'm doing a CRB course and have a host of agents doing classes, including the ABR.

I think you are describing your experience with a particular agency. Be careful about downgrading the entire franchise.

Regards,

I went through the Create21 training. I paid 400.00, did not have an option on that and it was absolutely horriblee. It was sales 101, very basic stuff. We spent the bulk of the time making sure people had there mics on, troubleshooting soundcard issues and just covering very basic sale skills. I asked a number of my peers there thoughts on it as I thought maybe it was just my perception. They all thought it was horrible as well, some more so that I did. Sorry Steve if this dissapoints you. it just had no value for me at all and being required to take it on my dime just added insult to injury.

smgardner --

I'm puzzled by your references to CREATE21 . .

First, it costs $195, not $400. I just double-checked at 21Online.com (the franchise intranet site) to be sure.

Second, I just went through the program myself (I try to do so every other year to keep current what my agents are experiencing). We covered business planning, prospecting methods, building a referral business and niche marketing.

Third, there is a heavy emphasis on scripts, particularly objection handling, plus a complete set of marketing tools.

And, at our national convention last week, it was announced that it had made the Training Magazine top 100 programs in the country (no other real estate program made the list).

Perhaps you took something a few years ago??

I took it in 2005. Maybe it has changed. Remember, this is the opinion of me and about three new agents that I spoke with at our office. Hey, if people like it that is great. At the time I took it I found it extremely basic with the bulk of each nights session troubleshooting audio issues with prticipants microphones. It just didn't do it for me...sorry that surprises you. Actually, my broker at the time told me it was elementary stuff. We had a good broker, but our office was pretty much made up of new agents. We were on a 60/40 split. The trend there seemed to be that once you got a deal or two under your belt you moved on to a company with better training and a more generous split. I seem to notice that most of the C21s here in Az have a pretty high turnover.
Hey, maybe it all works out good and you love it...thats great. But, what works for some does not always work for others. It was a real bad experience for me through and through.

I joined KW and have seen a few training sessions. They seem okay. If anything you learn in the videos is startling, you're in the wrong business. What really is nice is that they have on-site teachers who are active local agents who will show you the ropes. I really need to make time to attend more classes - though I'm doing okay already with a listing and three buyers in weeks 1-3.

I JUST WENT TO THE GREAT C 21 CONVENTION. It was a blast and yes there were more courses than I could take. My partner and bI split it the agenda so we could get the most information.

I agree, around here it is the most well known. There are NO KW in this area, and Foxton's has all but become extinct here. We have all the corporate tarining plus our agency has rotating classes every week on every subject possible pertaining to RE and sales.

RealtorBarbaraT:

I attended the recent Century 21 International Convention too.

Weren't you impressed with Bev Thorne, the new Senior VP of Marketing?

And, Colin Powell. Unbelievable.

BamBam, you started this thread over 2 weeks ago. Where did you go?

I have to agree with staggart - the key is the broker, not the franchise. While each company has it's own strengths and weaknesses, it's the broker that makes the real difference.

I'm with C21 and our broker does not compete with his agents - he feels his role is to support, not sell. In addition to the C21 training, he offers his own training and mentoring (no charge). He provides a huge variety of sales materials (no charge). Other brokers have different philosophies and business models.

Each franchisee (broker) has considerable flexibility in how they run their business. When you interview, be sure to interview the broker instead of just listening to the sales pitch about the company.

STaggart - if you read all the posts on this page, you will see that you are the only person who feels that Century 21 is the better of the two options (between Century 21 and Keller Williams). I have worked for both franchises, starting with Century 21 and moved to Keller Williams three years ago. It was the best thing that I have ever done.

Let me start by telling you their Mission Statement: To build careers worth having, businesses worth owning and lives worth living.....Their Vision: To be the Company of choice for a new generation of real estate agents and owners.....Their Values: God, Family, then Business.....Their Goals: 625 Market Centers,
82,000 Associates, 8,200 Millionaires.....Their Philosophy: Our beliefs are an essential part of who we are and how we conduct business. The Keller Williams® Belief System is the foundation for providing the ultimate in service for our clients. (WI4C2TS
Our Belief System In Action...

Win-Win...Or no deal
Integrity...Do the right thing
Customers...Always come first
Commitment...In all things
Communication...Seek first to understand
Creativity...Ideas before results
Teamwork Together...Everyone Achieves More
Trust...Starts with honesty
Success...Results through people

Let me tell you that the above is not just something that is written down and then never seen again. As a Keller Williams agent, we are expected to not just use these as guidelines, but to actually put them into practice every day. If two Agents in the office had a disagreement about something, the Broker does not step in and make the decision for them. They are given a piece of paper with the Belief System above, put in a conference room and told to follow those guidelines and come up with their own solution - works every time! If you cannot live by these standards, then Keller Williams is not a good match for you and maybe you would be happier at a different company.

I know all of the head people at Keller Williams by sight and by name because they are involved with the day-to-day of making this a fabulous company for the Agents. They don't spend money on advertising and they don't expect you to advertise Keller Williams. You are to advertise yourself - that's what clients hire is the Agent - not the company.

The "leads" you get from Century 21 are not given to you. They are a result of you sitting in the office 4 hours and answering the phones for the company! Wouldn't it be a better use of your time to be out meeting people and talking to them about yourself rather than sitting at a desk alone in the office waiting for the phone to ring???? I know this to be true, because I wasted many hours answering the phones for Century 21 - with no pay. Why don't they just hire someone to do that and hand out the leads???? That's what Keller Williams does!

Also, the Agents have a VERY active voice in the managment at Keller Williams. The expense sheets are an open book and they are reviewed by 20% of the Agent base every month in an open meeting. We have some say-so as to where monies are being spent. Not at Century 21 - the owner decides what to spend, when to spend it and how it's spent. The reason the Century 21 Agents don't care is because the profits do not affect them. At Keller Williams, if you decide to participate in the Profit Sharing Program, if the office is profitable, a portion of the profit is given to you!!! Last year I paid for my convention, my airfare, my hotel and my car from the Profit Sharing program -and I only had 1 Agent who was in my Profit Sharing plan!!!! I personally know people who are making over $20,000 a month just through the Profit Share Program along - consistently month after month!

I don't know where you got your information about the training programs at Keller Williams, Steve, but they are State of the Art programs. They deal with today's issures - they are not some stale old tapes like the ones I was told to watch at Century 21. We also have Top Producers who run several training programs a month - who do you want to learn from - some actor in a studio in some far away state or a successful Realtor right in your own town talking to you about issues in today's market? Hands down - no contest!!! Also, as someone mentioned, if you don't produce at Century 21, you get kicked out. At Keller Williams, if you're not producing, you will be asked to start attending training classes, provided with a Mentor if you want and every effort will be made to help you be successful, if you're willing to do the work. If you expect to just show up and do nothing, you are an expense to the company and the Agents will want you to leave - they only want producing, professional Agents in their office. Also about training, everyone here shares. I mean their share their systems, their marketing tips, their open house process and on and on - it'a all about helping each other to succeed - not a cut-throat company like so many others.

If anyone feels they're going to sign up with Century 21, although I spent 15 years there and it was okay for the time I was there, please contact me directly. I will save you from making the biggest mistake of your life. PLEASE CALL ME - I will help you!!!

wow...do you get a downline..if steve signs up?

At what point during your 15 years with Century 21 did you come to think of it as the biggest mistake of your life? Was it at the beginning? Year 9? Half way through June in year 14?

Real Agent - Here's how the Profit Sharing Plan works. If someone signs up and uses my name as their sponsor (it doesn't matter what Keller Williams office the work in), he/she is in my downline. Now if that person makes a sale in April and that office is profitable in April, a portion of that profit comes to me. The more the person sells, the bigger my cut. The more people I have in my downline, the more money I make. If they sell, but the office in not profitable, there is to cut for me. It's all about each office being profitable. Checks are always deposited into my checking account on the 21st of the month for the previous month's profit sharing - like clockwork!

As for the comment from InnocenceMyth, I actually didn't know that it was the biggest mistake of my life until I interviewed at other companies. The first company I interviewed at, I did as a favor for one of my past clients - he knew the owner of a Prudential office that was opening. I interviewed there, but they said nothing to me that made me consider changing offices. Then at a closing table, I was talking to the other Realtor, who I did not know, and she had just left Century 21 to move to Keller Williams. She was very low key and invited me to a Christmas/Recruiting party. I went to the party and never looked back. I was so impressed with the classines of the operation, the welcome I received from the Agents that were there, and the conversations with the Agents about how much they loved working for Keller Williams. I thought "I've been working for Century 21 for 15 years and I would never tell anyone to join because it was such a great company". I thought, what am I doing at Century 21 and a week later I was at Keller Williams. I have found it to be as great as everyone told me it would be. I often hear about companies on the news (not real estate related) that talk about how well the employees are treated and now I finally work for a company like that and I could not be happier. And yes, as you can see, I will refer it to anyone and everyone I can - whether they end up in my down line or not! It's all about helping others improve - their lives,their business, whatever!

I vote for Century 21.

Not trying to bash anyone and it's very ironic that I would post this since I have an earlier post in this thread that praises KW, but . . . read how I chose my broker: http://www.agentsonline.net/forums/ubbth...true#Post129848

The "Big name franchise" that I did NOT choose in the story was Keller-Williams

Pigtayl ---

I've been on the road for a few days (in Arizona on a rockhounding trip -- fire agates are very cool!) and missed your post until this evening.

I feel a strong urge to respond on a few points . .

* Mission statement. My company has one that is based on key values: In summary, it focuses on honesty, integrity, competence, profitability and playfullness.

* Leads at Century 21 only from floor time? It is true that many brokerages have floor time for agents -- but that is an individual broker decision. I know KW offices who do. In my brokerage, we have paid receptionists in each office who channel leads to agents. And, we focus heavily on generating business for our agents. Last year we provided a bit over 150 relocation closings from broker to broker referrals and relocation company referrals (note: closings, notjust leads) and we also handed out over 1000 internet leads. Right now I'm implementing a customer care center that will handle incoming leads, scrub them and then pass them to our agents. And, if they need to be incubated, the customer care center will do that for my agents. Cost to agents? Zero.

* Training. I've been in the Century 21 System for 7 years. I've never seen a franchise video tape of any form. Instead, we have a series of programs: CREATE 21 for new agents, Virtual Solution Series (short classes on everything from prospecting to technology), BLAST (a very intensive coaching program based on Floyd Wickman's acclaimed Sweathogs program), CAMP (an advanced individual coaching program by a highly competent, nationally recognized group in Virginia), ABR & CRS classes (NAR designation courses) and PEP (a program designed for those struggling in the business). Of note, these programs have been named into the top 100 training programs in the country for 7 years running by Training Magazine (no other real estate program has made the list). On top of these, I add my own in-house training of skills courses (how to write a contract, take a listing, use the mls, do a cma, do a net sheet and problemsolving). My earlier point on some of the national KW training was that much of it came from Century 21. The classis example was ORBIT which is a Century 21 System program for brokers. KW was teaching it to its brokerages a couple years ago --- with the Century 21 logo on the bottom of the pages. The ORBIT instructor got a big kick out of that --- particularly since he rewrites the course every couple years.

* Profit Sharing. Hmmmmm. Let's see. The latest data I could find was 2004. KW profit sharing was $28 million according to the franchise. The number of KW agents that year was 42,691. By my calculator, that is an average of a bit under $656 per agent. Oooohhhh. Big money. So, people should join KW for the opportunity of obtaining the value of one and half home warranties??

My point? Be careful about believing that KW represents good and everyone else is part of the forces of evil. That level of intensity leads to chronic overreaching.

Each franchise and office has individual strengths and weaknesses. And, many are dependent on the implementation by the local owner/broker. But, rarely, are the choices black or white.

Regards,

Agreed, I have been recruited by KW people since I started with my company... I was chatting with one KW employee about nothing at a seminar, we exchanged cards, next I knew I was getting a recruitment letter from her and her brokers card.. strikes me as classless. This downline thing isn't the way I'd want my biz run. However I haven't ever heard anything bad from a KW employee, I only know 2 ex KW employees and they disliked it.

Each office independently owned and operated.

That single line usually makes discussions about "Which is better <insert franchise here> or <insert other franchise here>?" moot.

Your going to find that how creative, cool, compelling, interesting, profitable an office is has a whole lot more to do with the broker running the show than the franchise they are in.

I suppose you can make the argument that some foundation policies of one franchise or another are better. However, you can bet that there are C21 franchise offering profit sharing models of their own that have nothing to do with anything specific to C21.

I plan to have a profit sharing plan in my office after the first year of operation - and I have no intention of becoming a part of a franchise at all.

So, basically I am giving you the same advice I give my clients. The company name on the sign means exactly ZERO, its what your getting that counts and none of that is predetermined by the logo on the letterhead.

R

"who is leading the race for best real estate brand".
Good read and relavent to the topic discussed.

http://www.rismedia.com/wp/2007-03-31/who-is-leading-the-race-for-best-real-estate-brand-2/

I know each franchise has its different USP. And the logo has little to do with how a broker/agent runs their individual office/business.

C21 is the biggest indeed.

Keller Williams is the fastest growing and there are some reasons why.

A few years ago, I hadn't even seen a KW sign around here. Now they are everywhere. It's like an ameoba.

Interesting article, but I think "biggest" and "most recognizable" is a regional thing. Where I am certain brands, such as C21 and Remax, are seen as being like the MacDonalds or WalMart of R.E. Whereas companies you wouldn't think of elsewhere, such as Cororan and Sothebys, have more of a cachet to them.

I'll pipe in, I'm not with either C21 or KW. From a business perspective, KW (as a whole) is more agent-centric. If your business goals include building a business of your own and not for a broker, than KW is the direction you want to go. If your business goals are such that you want to be a good agent, but pretty much work without a team, and you don't care about the agent focus, than C21 may work for you.

I attended the KW conference solely because there wasn't a single other conference available that was offering classes that were relevant to building a solid business, with a single model and all training you take is focused on achieving that model. In other words, I'm tired of going to all of the Craig Proctor, Brian Buffini, etc. things only to have to then figure out how each 'new idea' can be applied to the focus I want on my business. Instead, I want things I simply have to plug in. I don't want to re-invent the wheel, nor change the alignment on my business. I checked out NAR, our RE company and CRS conventions. KW had the best offereings.

I firmly believe that AS A WHOLE - in other words, CORPORATE WIDE, KW is the best company for an agent to choose if they plan on building their own business. With that said, local is where it's at. There is a big reason we are not with our local KW franchise and it has everything to do with the broker/owners. It's a big bummer because I know for a fact we would grow faster if we were able to plug into their systems 100%.

You have to make the best decision for you and your business. Write yourself a business plan. Which brokerage will help you achieve your business goals better? For Steve Taggart, that appears to be C21, for others it's other companies.

I do have to say, I keep tabs on the top producers in the country. I watch what company's they are at, what they are doing, etc. I see a lot of these producers migrating... to KW. These are people who have been with RE/MAX and other company's that tend to promote the agent vs. the brokerage. I've seen top CB and C21 agents migrate as well.

It'll be interesting to see what happens over the next 3-5 years. KW's numbers are growing at a faster clip than any other real estate company. They are growing at a faster clip than agents coming into the business. Their volume and profit sharing are growing in leaps and bounds. All of this speaks volumes. Just because KW may not be strong or visible in one's particular market, does not mean they are not a strong competitor. Prudential is insanely strong in the Philly suburb areas, but it doesn't even exist in the North Idaho, etc.

VERY INTERESTING INFO

NorthIdaho - very insightful post, thanx for posting it.

The bit about top agents being with KW is simply wrong.

The Wall Street Journal in November of 2006 released the first comprehensive survey of the top 200 agents & teams. Realogy agents swept the top honors.

Individuals and teams from Sotheby's International Realty®, ERA® and CENTURY 21® (twice) claimed the respective No. 1 ranking in each of the four available categories. Coldwell Banker® and The Corcoran Group also posted multiple award winners among the categories.

Below are the Realogy-affiliated sales professionals who ranked among the Top 10 in each category:

Top Agents By Sales Volume
(Realogy Brands: 25 of Top 50)
1. Harald Grant, Sotheby's International Realty, Inc. (NRT), Southampton, N.Y. ($244,901,664)
4. Cristina Condon, Sotheby's International Realty, Inc. (NRT), Palm Beach, Fla. ($181,754,920)
7. Chris Cortazzo, Coldwell Banker (NRT), Los Angeles, Calif. ($172,717,770)
8. Randy Solakian, Coldwell Banker (NRT), Los Angeles, Calif. ($159,362,775)
10. Royce Cablayan, Coldwell Banker (NRT), Los Altos, Calif. ($149,727,631)

Top Agents By Transaction Sides
(Realogy Brands: 28 of Top 50)
1. Theresa Griffin, ERA Suncoast Realty, Crystal River, Fla. (891.5 sides)
3. C.R. Bankson, ERA American Realty & Investments, Homosassa, Fla. (308)
7. Vicki Foster, CENTURY 21 Judge Fite Co., Dallas, Texas (295)
9. Kadi Edge, Coldwell Banker (NRT), Los Angeles, Calif. (273)
10. Sandra Gibson, Coldwell Banker (NRT), Los Angeles, Calif. (269.3)

Top Teams by Sales Volume
(Realogy Brands: 17 of Top 50)
1. Ruth Pugh, CENTURY 21 Award, San Diego, Calif. ($539,500,000)
6. The Jills, Coldwell Banker (NRT), Miami Beach, Fla. ($276,723,050)
9. John McMonigle, Coldwell Banker (NRT), Newport Beach, Calif. ($256,901,250)
10. Browne, Pashby, Kann and Sullivan, The Corcoran Group (NRT), New York, N.Y. ($246,874,493)

Top Teams by Transaction Sides
(Realogy Brands: 10 of Top 50)
1. Ruth Pugh, CENTURY 21 Award, San Diego, Calif. (1,676 sides)


And, I'm going to be brutal for a moment.

I just pulled the 2006 numbers for Keller Williams:

* Total commissions: $2.49 billion
* Total agents: $72,600
* Total profit sharing: $52.3 million

A little math shows:

* Average commissions per agent: $34,298
* Average profit sharing per agent: $729.39

Now, my average agent did much more in average commissions --- more than twice that --- in little old Idaho. Ouch.

And, "profit sharing" is so minor as to be irrelevant.

The facts are pretty brutal. .

Thanks, NorthIdaho, for your unbiased feedback. I joined KW because I wanted to own a brokerage, but didn't want to start one on my own. I really, truly enjoy the team spirit, sharing, models, systems, and help from the top. Gary Keller and Dave Jenks recently met with the Top 100 agents in Austin so we can mastermind with them. They want to make sure they stay in touch with us, so personally invited us to a session. We'll be doing them a few times a year besides all of the other national masterminding and sharing.

It's a great company and I wouldn't want to start my own brokerage. I wrote an article about it on Active Rain. http://activerain.com/blogsview/38369/Why-I-don-t

Steve,

I'm well aware of WSJ's top 200, we ranked high on the list. But, you are lumping Realogy as one company, rather than putting it company by company. Otherwise, you aren't comparing apples to apples.

Additionally, if you participated in the list, you'd know that:

1) It's the first time WSJ has done this list (and it's not comprehensive by any means, though it aims to be).

2) Everything was self-submitted. In other words, the only people who submitted their numbers were people who found out that WSJ/Lore Magazine and Real Trends were doing this. In other words, this year will be much more competitive and inclusive because more people will know about it.

Next, to imply that only Realogy companies have the highest producing agents is just ridiculous. There is no fact basis behind this, only a 'gut' hopefulness (or assumption because you feel C21 is just 'the bomb').

Additionally, the data in the Top 200 is for the calendar year 2005. It's been 16 months since 2005. Since we communicate with the top agents with companies world-wide, I have some knowledge of the movement amongst companies. As I said in my previous post, while unscientific, I have seen a marked increase in top agents and teams nation-wide moving to KW.

Next, let's get into the 'average' numbers you've provided. First, how about being brutal across the industry as a whole. The national income average is how much? Leave the 'profit-sharing' out of it as other companies can't compare so talking negatively about it is a moot point. Then, lets get all of the Realogy companies numbers, distributed by company - what? They don't publish it? Hum, so it's not comparable.

In other words, the numbers you provided have NOTHING WHAT-SO-EVER to do with anything related to this conversation. You can't provide anyone else's numbers, for all we know, Realogy companies are lower. Comparing your one brokerage is also a moot point, we are comparing companies as a whole.

Look I understand you are all gung-ho about C21, but please provide apples-to-apples comparisons.

northidaho --

Fair enough.

For 2006, the Realogy companies had an average per agent commission of a bit above $53,300. I can go Realogy brand by brand (CENTURY 21, COLDWELL BANKER, ERA & SOTHERBYS) but all rank from mid-40s to high 50s. Compare that with KW's equivalent number below $35,000.

RE/MAX, Prudential and Realty Executives also topped KW in per person commissions.

Of note, a couple months, I saw KW numbers for 4 different Western markets (2 in California, one in Utah and another in Arizona). The per-person productivity for each was below local industry averages in every case.

The blunt point is that KW is known in the industry as the single lowest producing of ANY real estate franchise.

Why? I'd say it was the obsession on profit-sharing-driven recruiting rather than actually helping people buy or sell real estate.

Regardless, it seems that having a 7 level multi-level scheme doesn't --- in the end --- put money in agents' pockets. Our friends at EXIT could learn something from that fact.

Aha, I think I just discovered the source of Steve Taggart's comments towards Keller Williams. Idaho Falls, ID is about 280 miles from Boise, ID (okay, not in their back yard, but close enough for this conversation). Boise, ID is home to the No. 1 profit sharing office in KW - internationally - for 2006, with $800,000 in profit sharing - for this office only! From June of 2006 to then end of 2006, that office went from 474 Agents to 530. With that many agents in one office, they must be spread out quite a distance from Boise - possibly all the way to Idaho Falls???? possibly taking over the market?????

One other comment, Steve. When you look at the average profit sharing per Agent at KW, you are significantly skewing the numbers. The profit sharing program is OPTIONAL. As a matter of fact, only a very small portion of all KW agents participate in it. Many are not comfortable recruiting and therefore choose not to.

C21 boasts 144,000 agents world wide, but only 10,000 went to the annual convention. KW has only 72,000 and had over 9,000 at their convention - hmmmmmm wonder why?

I agree with North Idaho - you should be comparing apples to apples, as he has done. I think he made some good comments about both Century 21 as well as Keller Williams.

Just a quick note in Illinois 80% of all agents come from offices of 8 agents or less. That is why they are talking about a new license Called MANAGING BROKER one up from a Brokers License.

Judy,

Your comments about KW's Boise office somehow impacting me is plain bizzare. That is all the way on the other side of the state.

The KW we had in our area was shut down after they were sued on an E&O claim a couple years ago.

Of note, based on your numbers for the Boise office (which you indicated was the top KW office), their profit sharing was a measly $1509.43 per person per year. That is a fraction of a deal. And, it certainly doesn't amount to much. Yet, people talk like they will be able to retire on their profit sharing. How silly.

More to my point about per-person-productivity, that average agent on KW's Boise Office sold only $1.7 million last year (new RISMedia survey). In contrast, an agent at the local Coldwell Banker office did $3.2 million in gross sales. An agent in the local Century 21 office did $2.2 million in gross sales. Even folks at the big local independent did quite a bit better.

If that is the top KW office, it is not a pretty picture when comes down to dollars and cents.

My original points were simple. KW's multi-level environment creates an almost evangelical fervor that is not based on results. And, that point is accurate --- and brutal.

My dog is bigger than yours.

real agent ---

You are right. My last post was a bit snippy. I just didn't appreciate the claim that I had some hidden agenda.

But, for my tone, I apologize to all.

Staggart, I have to stop reading your e-mails because you seem to respond with emotions instead of current facts.

One of your previous posts talked about a training program that KW used that was a previous C21 training program. I don't know this to be true, but that's neither here nor there. Even you admitted that this occured YEARS ago.

You refer to a KW office that was shut down - again I have no knowledge on this, so I can't comment on it. All I can say is again you stated it was YEARS ago.

Obviously if either of these is true, KW has learned from their mistakes, because I haven't heard of any situations like that in my three years at KW. Yes, offices are currently shut down at KW if they are not profitable. Who would continue to support an office that is not profitable? Not any person with a good sense of business success and profitablity.

In my last post, I wrote "The profit sharing program is OPTIONAL. As a matter of fact, only a very small portion of all KW agents participate in it. Many are not comfortable recruiting and therefore choose not to." You chose to ignore that when you responded to the Boise, Idaho profit success. I personally know that my Broker who has been in KW for I believe 6 years makes over $8000 a month in profit sharing alone. Many people make much more - others make nothing - it's a personal choice, as I previous stated.

In response to your average sales volume per person in the Boise office, you ignored the fact that 56 agents only worked there for the last half of the year. I don't know for a fact, but I would guess that a portion of those were new hires. How many agents did you add to your office from June to the end of 2006?

I'm sure there are a lot of intelligent people who read these posts and my hope is that they will check out both companies, as well as others in their area and make a selection of their own. I can only tell you in a metropolitan area like I live in, Chicago, I can choose from pretty much any company out there. I have worked for two different Century 21 offices and know that I have found KW to be lightyears ahead of anyone else, including Century 21, in all aspects of importance to a Realtor and their customers.

I wish you continued succes at Century 21 - now I have to go take a listing.

Funny, Judy, because your "emails" (they're not) are the ones that strike me as more emotional. You obviously love being with Keller Williams. That is FANTASTIC. No sarcasm there - you've found the environment for you. But you seem to think the next step is to make negative comparisons with KW's competition. Your very first post in this thread postulated a consensus that simply was not there - that Staggart was the only person here advocating C21 over KW.

Judy,

Every time I respond with a fact, you dismiss it as "emotional", something that happened a long time ago or irrelevant. That is exactly the sort of KW fervor I originally spoke about -- a willingness to overlook facts because they don't comport with your desired reality.

I'll try one last time . .

<One of your previous posts talked about a training program that
<KW used that was a previous C21 training program. I don't know
<this to be true, but that's neither here nor there. Even you
<admitted that this occured YEARS ago.

The program I was talking about is called ORBIT in the CENTURY 21 System. It is a year-long program designed to train our brokers. The instructor is Mike Berry. Last year, when I took it, he mentioned that KW had taken sections of his training from several years ago and was handing it out in their CURRENT training --- all with the CENTURY 21 logo on it. The point he made is that they were stealing his old material rather than creating their own.

<You refer to a KW office that was shut down - again I have no
<knowledge on this, so I can't comment on it. All I can say is
<again you stated it was YEARS ago.

The one I was referring to was in Pocatello, Idaho. Three years ago it was shut down because they got a $1.7 million judgement against the agency for participating in a series of fradualent transactions with a seller and buyer. The KW agency lost the jury trial and was shut down when the plaintiffs seized the agency's furniture and accounts. Please note that the only reason I indicated this was that you tried to imply that I was somehow jealous of KW's success in my marketplace. I merely pointed out that I didn't have a KW in my market right now.


<In my last post, I wrote "The profit sharing program is
<OPTIONAL. As a matter of fact, only a very small portion of all
<KW agents participate in it. Many are not comfortable
<recruiting and therefore choose not to." You chose to ignore
<that when you responded to the Boise, Idaho profit success. I
<personally know that my Broker who has been in KW for I believe
<6 years makes over $8000 a month in profit sharing alone. Many
<people make much more - others make nothing - it's a personal
<choice, as I previous stated.

My point from the beginning was that profit sharing, overall, is very small. For every broker who sets up his company, recruits a bunch of agents into his downline, and makes $8000 per month, most make very small sums. The evidence? If the average at the best in your system is about $1500/year then most make much less than that. The key point is the profit sharing is a minor contributor to income except for a few KW folks. It doesn't --- contrary to the common representation --- change most agents' lives.

<In response to your average sales volume per person in the
<Boise office, you ignored the fact that 56 agents only worked
<there for the last half of the year. I don't know for a fact,
<but I would guess that a portion of those were new hires. How
<many agents did you add to your office from June to the end of
<2006?

My office is smaller (now a 106 agents) than that KW's Boise office but I recruited proportionally more new folks. In fact, I recruited more than double what they did in percentage terms.

Yet, my per person productivity was much greater --- nearly a million dollars a person more. And, my market has much cheaper homes. My point is simple. KW's system seems to be associated with low per agent productivity. It is true in a franchise to franchise comparison and it seems to be true in virtually every market. The key question is why do KW agents make less? Again, I postulated that the reason was that they were distracted by the multi-level component.

I'll repeat what I stated in my last post - "I'm sure there are a lot of intelligent people who read these posts and my hope is that they will check out both companies, as well as others in their area and make a selection of their own."

Unfortunatly, I have found in most cases, Agents go with the first company they interview with, the company closest to their home or the company that their "friends" are at, rather than taking the time to do their homework. For you new Agents out there, take the time to check out several companies and make your decision based on that. It's much easier to go with a great company from the start as opposed to having to change companies somewhere down the line.

Good luck to you all and I wish you success in your real estate careers.

Judy

Hello Everyone,

In an attempt not to get involved I feel the necessity to post my opinion. My team and I joined KW in June 06 after 6 years at RE/MAX and 3 years at century 21 and Prudential.

At the time I started 10 years ago C21 was the place to go and learn the ropes. However in the past few years especially in Massachusetts C21 has dropped off the playing field. Many agents in our area feel that the C21 pay plan is archaic and their presence has become very small it has even gotten to the point where many of our local c21 companies are now teaming up to compete against Coldwell, RE/MAX, and KW. C21 stopped promoting their golden jackets and I think this really hurt them because of its important image to the company.(at least hear in the Northeast). Keep in mind the C21 is the grandfather of Franchise companies out there and even though I think they are falling behind they still hold a good name. However my felling is that they need to do more to attract agents and revitalize their image and pay plans.

As I said previously I spent 6 years at a RE/MAX that was the biggest in New England. Although I loved every minute of my 6 years there I felt that this company was falling down the same slope of the C21’s of the world. The average age in my office was 52 and I was one of the youngest agents by 20 years! I noticed RE/MAX trying to work on this and wish them luck.

To say I would never go back to any of these companies would not be fair because no one knows what the future holds. However when I left RE/MAX my owner said I would have a terrible year and KW was a no name company. Well my year finished the opposite and I finished at 15.8mil to production! Keller Williams has been a great success for my business and team.

REMEMBER! Keller Williams was founded by many of the top producers and big names at C21. They brought great knowledge and added a sensible pay structure. This doesn’t even mention the best education in the industry today! I think no one can compete by a long shot.

Keller Williams is the Real Estate Company of tomorrow and if you don’t believe me look at the copy cats out there. The opportunities are tremendous from management to ownership. It is the only company that I can find that is truly run by the agents. Also, whoever said the profit share is not worth the conversation is completely wrong. I have friends and agents that profit shared from $50K to $500K in 06! Tell me you wouldn’t be happy with that kind of passive income???

People are scared of the impact KW is making on the market and that’s understandable. I have a good friend who runs a C21 and we just see things different. I guess what makes the world go round. Either way if you’re happy where you are that all that matters. Remember the #1 reason people switch offices is because they are upset with what is going on. I would also suggest you compare stats on who left and who came for agent count to each company. I believe KW had the most agents join last year. It doesn’t matter where an agent is today; it’s all about where they end up tomorrow.

I have only been to a century 21 agency for 4 month. I understand each office is independently owned and operated but I am just saying I am dispointed with my particular century 21. There is no particular training for new agent, just the 2 time a week rotating training. There is no mentor, only the sales manager for everything. I also understand that this is not a job, it's everybody for themselves. But this is a totally new business and lots of things to learn for new agent, for 50% split, I would imagine there are more one one one training and showing the rope. I also talked to other new agents in the training. I found out 80% of them are part time. Have not seen any new agents had more than one transaction if any. I think what people said in this forum is true. Some broker just want to hire you, milk your SOI, and leave you out there to dry.

I know I want to switch office. I will go out there and interview more brokers. Coldwell, KW, Alain Pinel, etc. The only thing that I don't feel very comfortable about KW is the talk of downline, profit sharing(on your downline), sounds like
Amway and Nuskin! Anybody can convince me to get over that?

That's EXACTLY what I've been thinking. I'd love to hear other viewpoints...what it's really all about.

I've pretty much decided to go with Real Living (Realty One). Their training (beginning and ongoing) seem state-of-the-art. Weekly meetings, mentoring, etc. I'm very excited! Now I just have to take the classes and pass the exam!!! Details...details.

Kelingdon,

I had a miserable experience with a Century 21 as well. It was a huge listing agency so I thought at least the floor time would be helpful..It was so restricted and calls were siphoned from the floor to top producers on a regular basis. They protected the hot shots at the expense of everyone else.

Keller has a good reputation around here. They had several solid agents move there. They werent' shining stars or household names, but ran steady businesses. They seem satisfied. I feel that our needs are closer to the needs of this type of agent then a top producer. I think the profit sharing is not emphasized much around here. It might depend in the individual franchise. We've had annoying posts on this forum from KW people trying to scare up some profit sharing business. So some franchise might over do it.

Our local KW just had a Top Producer leave and opened up their own office next door. I guess different strokes for different folks.

BINGO! Same thing happened at the one I was at. The top lister had calls siphoned to them.

Act like it doesn't exist. If someone brings it up to you, just tell them you would like to focus on yourself for now.
Just focus on YOUR business, not on recruiting others.

And I can do that? I won't be "shunned" if I don't join in, get in on the pyramid-thing? I don't want to be a broker...I want to buy and sell houses...that's all. Pretty simple, eh?

It is a bit naive to assume that one can seperate the 7 level profit sharing program from KW.

Go the company web site. It states that there are three fundamental reasons to be associated with them: culture, education and profit share. Every recruiting video or brochure emphasises the program.

On the KW intranet site (searchable by GOOGLE), it has as the primary goal for branch managers the acquisition of agents. The standard recruiting pitch is built around culture and profit sharing.

The multi-level component is an integrated element of their culture. Search this site. There are repeated recruiting attempts by KW folks, all centered around profit sharing.

Yet, when pressed, they indicate that the profit sharing program is no big deal --- that a new recruit can just ignore it.

That is one of my pet peeve's about KW. Its advocates are so fervent in their believe that is the one true company that they are willing to say whatever it takes to get folks onboard.

It is the same behavior you'll see from an Amway or Herbalife advocate . .

My wife was in nuskin (or is it nuscam) a while back. I have seen the ferver and how they operate. When there are no more "recuit" to build the pyramid, it collapes.

I am looking for a growth company to build my long term career. Don't want to be caught up in any get rick quick scheme.

I really think you have to take it on a brokerage to brokerage basis. Its the office that matters, not the franchise.

Although I REALLY dislike the C21 I was in, it doesn't mean that I would never hang my license at one that had different policies and a better broker. Also, what works at one stage of your career, might not be the best thing at later stages. That's why I tell new people not to be swayed by where all the top producers and "household names" are. Their needs are, if anything, in CONFLICT with those of the newer agents.

KW profit sharing is no different from collecting a referral from another agent for sending them business.

It's really simple, the owner of each Keller Williams Market Center shares appox. 50% of their profits with the agents who help build the team. Profit is distributed based on the monthly company dollar contribution of agents who you had a role in recruiting.

At a Century 21 office, a small handful of managers, the owner and broker are the only people with a direct stake in recruiting agents. At KW... an office with 100 agents has 100 agents + staff with an economic incentive to recruit and that must be a challenge to compete with.

The very best way to recruit is to help people buy and sell real estate. If you meet an agent you enjoyed working with you can refer them to a team leader and collect a portion of the profits that agent generates....

It is just like a referral, and a great competitive advantage for our company.

Yes, it is different.

With a referral fee, it is generally a one-time event. You refer a client to another agent and recieve something back when they sell something to or of the client. Generally speaking, referring a client doesn't distort the behavior of the agent referring the client. Nor, is a referral distributed based on a 7 level system.

KW's "profit sharing" is supposed to generate a perpetual stream of income off agents referred to KW, thereby creating a path to financially independence. That's why KW agents pursue everyone they deal with to join KW --- regardless of whether they are a good agent or even a good fit.

That pursuit distorts nearly every relationship. That's why so many are leery of multi-level arrangements like KW.

And, it is why KW agents vigoriously claim it is something besides a multi-level arrangement.

Seeing as everyone seems to be so interested in the profit share hopefully I can shed some light on the program.

All of the training that I have been to since joining Keller Williams has been pitched the same. Work with buyers and sellers. Do what’s right and if you run into an agent that would fit the KW culture ask if it would be ok for our Team Leader to contact them. If it is a yes, then great pass the name along... I believe all managers jobs are to recruit, retain, and educated no matter which real estate company you affiliate with. (Some just do it better then others.) If the answer is no thank you then move on and understand that people are often happy where they are.

As for profit sharing; it is far from Amway or any other marketing scheme. KW is built on sharing the profit with the agents and owners. The numbers are roughly 47% of profits each month to the Owners and 53% to the agents that have successful helped to grow the office.

If I come across an agent that I feel exemplifies the KW culture and he or she comes to KW then I am open to receive a portion of their CAP (a number that each office computes... mine office in MA is 21K per year). Once that CAP is paid off by the agent that I recruit I will not receive any profit share until the following year (anniversary not calendar) that the agent renews. The profit share goes seven levels which can get exciting when an agent you recruited recruits a successful agent.

While you could get away to say it is Amwayish; I am sure many agents will beg to differ.

Also, I have never met any Agents, Staff, or Team Leaders (By the way; you can't sell real estate as a Team Leader / Manager at KW) affiliated with Keller Williams who doesn't make recruiting optional. Although I would challenge any Broker, Owner, Manager, or Team Leader to tell me that they don’t encourage their agents to help them recruit. We are in the field everyday and know which agents we would like to work with the most; right?

By the way I think it’s again important that to say I have been at KW since 6/06 and haven’t recruited a sole. My Team Leader isn’t pressuring me to either. However, I am starting to see some of my friends receive some nice checks so I am more vigil of the agents I work with now.

If they shun you, oh well. It is YOUR business that you are trying to jumpstart here. When they first brought this up to me I thought to myself, "why would I want other agents or why would I try to recruit good agents from other companies - I want the business, I dont need others sticking their hands in."


Alls I want to do is help people buy and sell homes also. Not only does my office have the whole downline, they are now starting to do all sorts of insurance now, which they want to incorporate into the profit sharing. This is something I will also not do.

I did not join KW for profit sharing reasons, and I don't plan on doing a whole lot of recruiting. I just want to concentrate on my business.

Someone above said that they cant block out the profit sharing concept of KW. Either someone is trying to really grow their downline or someone is weak minded and cant block things out.

Focus on yourself. Not every franchise and not every office is the same. Can a great downline make you money? Yes! Not every downline will.

I just wanted to pipe in yet again - RealTrends just released their RealTrends500 issue, which I received yesterday. They did a section on market leaders by metro areas.

For IDAHO (not metro area, entire state), 2006, here's how they rank:

By Transaction Sides:
Keller Williams Realty 3159
Coldwell Banker Aspen Realty 3109
Century 21 Beutler Associates 2421
Group One, Inc 2407

By Sales Volume:
Coldwell Banker Aspen Realty Inc $888,994,948
Keller Williams Realty $776,632,628
Group One, Inc $681,989,605
Century 21 Beutler & Associates $618,638,138

Just an interesting tidbit of info.

It is interesting to see what agencies did as a whole. But, what is even more inciteful is how the average agent did in each.

Here is how it looks for each of the agencies you named:


- - - - - - - - - - Gross Sales- - - - Agents - - - Sales Per Agent

Keller Williams- - - $777 million - - - 472 - - - - $1.646 million
CB Aspen - - - - - - $889 million - - - 227 - - - - $3.916 million
Group One - - - - - -$682 million - - - 194 - - - - $3.515 million
C-21 Beutler - - - - $719 million*- - - 210 - - - - $3.244 million


* The number is the RealTrends report has a typo. It is $719 million, not $619 million.

Again, you'll note that the Keller Williams office in Boise (according to an earlier post the one with the highest level of profit sharing in the entire KW system) has the lowest per agent productivity of all the agencies you mentioned.

Ouch!

What does this have to do with Pros & Cons of each company?Results vary per office. And let me ask you this, which of those companies above is the newest? Is it KW? Cause if it is, that is not bad at all.

Joseph,

The reason I even mentioned that is that I've had a couple KW folks try to throw statistics at me about the Idaho offices (as occured above).

In response to your question, the KW office has been around at least seven years (that is the earliest I remember seeing when I was in Boise). It may be older than that.

As you said, it really does depend on the individual office.

I have contributed comments to this site for awhile, but for those of you looking to join a new office, check out what your "cut" will be from the office. Many are 50% for new agents but my sister joined KW in Florida and as a new agent with no experience, she start at 80% 9yes, I said 80%). BIG difference!!! That was at the end of 2005 or the beginning of 2006 - I don't remember the date exactly, but I believe the cut is still way up there above the rest.

Judy

Judy,

You are missing a key point. EVERY office of EVERY franchise is different.

There are RE/MAX offices with all kinds of split commission plans. There are CENTURY 21 offices with 100% plans. There are KW offices with a variety of plans.

It truly depends on the individual agency.

In fact, I don't think ANY franchise that dictates a 50/50 split for newbies. It really depends on the local office, local situation and current circumstances.

Splits have always cracked me up, I just targeted a smaller mountain community where an EXIT location opened up and they requested I help them recruit. There were only two other shops in town, and they both offered only 40% to their agents even the ones that had been there for years!

I couldn't imagine being in the industry and working for 40%!!!

Keller Williams works for us. My wife and will be working in California

The answer to this question comes down to one thing. Do you want to run a business in real estate or do you want a job? If you want a job in real estate, I would definitely reccomend a traditional real estate company like Century 21 or Coldwell Banker.

If you want to run your own real estate business...then Keller Williams Realty is the obvious choice. Want to know why Keller Williams Realty is now the 3rd largest real estate company in the U.S., check out this link:

Old topic, but to shed some light on KW I'm a new agent with a 70/30 split and once I pay $18,000 in commission I keep 100% commission for the rest of my fiscal year. After the year is over, I of course have to revert back to a 70/30 split until I pay $18,000 more then again at 100%. If we don't do enough business to pay the $18,000 its not a problem, its not an issue.

The profit sharing thing is something that is interesting, but I didn't choose KW for that. I choose KW because the broker told me she earned over $150k her first year and will help me succeed and basically be my mentor.