We all have them. Their marketing is relentless and is loaded with misrepresentations about our industry. What I'd like us to share is our success stories and the horror stories that we know about these companies and the poor unknowing souls who have trusted their most important investment to these blood suckers. ie...couldn't sell on their own and you listed and sold it for 30k more than they were asking, or the buyer is suing the owner because he didn't dislcose some stuff that they should have. Their are thousands of examples we have as an industry the real danger of these companies has been exposed. No names of companies are necessary just your stories and testimonials.

Hi Sheldon, not sure what you are asking. Do you mean scams like Housevalues or do you mean these FSBO listing companies and or "ALTERNATIVE" brokerages. Just asking and then I may have something to add.

Alternative marketing companies. Housevalues and lead generating companies are a whole other ball of wax.

I had some experience but escaped before loosing money. If you want to try some thing like leads, Ask them for free trial. Most of them will say no but its tells you some thing

I'm mostly talking about blatant misrepresentations about commissions saved. Or a non licensed marketing company advertising on there signs as commission free realty.

I have several instances of this sort of thing, Sheldon.

I decided I would try to use these FSBO-type web sites to try to get FSBO leads. So I went through one and captured all the homes in my area that were listed on this site. Before I started to contact them I figured it might be a good idea to check ton MLS to see if any had since grown tired of this way of trying to sell and had since listed with real estate agent.

What I found was surprising. I found several that were currently listed with local Realtors that were still listed on the FSBO site.

I decided to take it a step further. I searched the FSBO site for all of the ones in my area that they claimed had sold with 0% commission. Several of these had recently been listed and sold by local Realtors and the MLS listings indicated that most were paying a 2.5% co-broke fee. There was no date given on the listing on the FSBO site.

So how the hell does this work??? I have to be truthful in my advertising and dealing with the public but this web site doesn't??? Here they are advertising publically that this (and several other) homes had sold for 0% commission when this was simply not the case. What utter rubbish!

So who do I complain to? My local board, CREA, OREA? Who? These sites are outright lying and so far they seem to be getting away with it. Can anything be done about this?

Jerry

Finally, after 2 months, a response - thanks Jerry! Sheldon - I thought that there would be nothing bad said, leading me to believe that everything was the "truth"

I agree, this is an issue with SOME marketing companies but not all. In many cases, the company relies on the homeowner to keep the site updated, and they do not or, when they sell through a real estate agent, they just go on the site themselves and mark the home as sold and the marketing company takes credit for the sale. This can be frustrating for the buyers looking on these sites and for the agents trying to prospect the private sales ;-)

Some companies are taking a more professional approach to the private sale business and we do our best not to overstate commissions saved or homes sold. In our case, if a client offers up a buyers commission, this is factored into what we publish for "savings" on the website.

BTW – Bloodsuckers is a bit harsh… "Bloodsuckers" usually drain their source of food unwillingly. Intelligent homeowners wanting some professional marketing for their private sale do not unwillingly part with a couple of hundred dollars; they make a conscious decision to get a bit of help.

But I still see these do-it-yourself sites that list homes on MLS say that they have sold for 1% commission when on MLS it clearly shows that they paid 2.5% co-broke. So obviously the property sold for 3.5% commission, not 1% as stated on the web site. Is this not complete and utter deceit? Why do realtors have to tell the truth but these discount/DIY sites don't have to? Seems like an unlevel playing field to me.

Jerry

I think most of us don't find it useful to trash other people or companies in the industry. If you were to ask what we thought worked, it's a more positive topic. There's so many companies out there that it would take forever to list what didn't work, especially since what may/may not work for one person may/may not work for another.

Just because a particular company or strategy may not work for us,it doesn't mean they're a scam or "bloodsuckers".

I think most of us don't find it useful to trash other people or companies in the industry. If you were to ask what we thought worked, it's a more positive topic. There's so many companies out there that it would take forever to list what didn't work, especially since what may/may not work for one person may/may not work for another.

Just because a particular company or strategy may not work for us,it doesn't mean they're a scam or "bloodsuckers". [/QUOTE]

I wasn't the one who used the term "bloodsucker."

I am however concerned that some of these places that offer flat fee or cut rate service are extremely cavalier with the facts. If they have a home listed on their web site that clearly states that it was sold for 0% commission when that wasn't the case then there is a problem. I've seen several instances of these bogus claims because when I pull up the property in MLS it shows that it was listed by an agent and paid a co-broke fee to a buyer's agent. With that being so how can they claim that it sold for 0% commssion??? They are telling an outright lie at that point.

I have no problem going against discounters et al but I do have a problem with having to do it blindfolded and with my hands tied behind my back. I have to play by rules and a code of ethics, why don't they? That's what I'm bothered by.

I think all parties should be up front and honest but maybe I'm in the minority. It seems that for now these other folks have free reign. Hopefully things will change.

Jerry

Jerry,

Things are changing with some private sale sites albeit slowly. I just drove by an ex-FSBO today in our community and it has been sold by a local real estate agent but it remains for sale on the FSBO site as the onus is on the homeowner to remove it from the site. Sometimes they do, sometimes they just log in and push the "Sold" button not realizing that this misrepresents the reality of the transaction on the site. I know what you mean though, but in some cases it is the error of the homeowner rather than the FSBO listing company.

Hi Dee I agree completely, however .. this property guy is not "In The Industry" .. they are not REALTORS or licensed in any way.

In Ontario they cannot show a property, book an appointment or in anyway act as a third party to a transaction. It's against the law.

They say they will replace the REALTOR, but it's a con.

In providing this very limited scope of service (by someone with no real estate experience) they confuse the public by advertising they can save all the commission.

They say They Replace the REALTOR, when in fact they replace the newspaper. Typically with poor quality print ads and national web sites that the average buyer would never trip on.

The property owner Replaces the REALTOR.

The property owner has to show their own property, hold their own open houses, prepare their own offers, negotiate on their own behalf... do everything REALTORS do.

Until they conduct their business in an honest manner I consider it a con and cheat and I don't think bloodsucker is strong at all.

Dave

They are in the real estate industry even if they are not REALTORS or licensees. Investors, real estate signs, postcard, and title companies are all in the real estate industry because they provide services related to real estate.

I just don't see the value in trashing other companies in a public forum even if names aren't mentioned. I respect your disdain, but you never know who is going to read your comments years from now.

I'm not sure about your area...

Which of the comapnies you've listed takes out ads in your local paper telling the public that they can replace Dee In Austin for less than $ 500.00 and do the same job. get the same results ??

This whole con has been designed to slide in under the regulations in Ontario. Anyone at any time can open a business such as this and answer to no one.

It's just like a guy who has never worked on cars, buying a case of oil and calling his driveway a service center... because he thinks mechanics charge too much.

I agree Dave. I spent much time, money, and effort getting and maintaining my real estate licence. Then these other places pop up telling consumers that if they use a Realtor to sell their home that they're throwing money away. Yet you'd be hard pressed to find any of these places that actually offers the full service they claim they do. They say things like, "You don't need a Realtor, the lawyer does all the work anyway" and things like that. I've never seen a lawyer insist on water potability tests or a home inspection. They'll check title and the usual stuff but for the most part they don't involve themselves beyond that because it's not their responsibility; the rest is usually left up to the Realtor. No Realtor? I guess it's up to the homeowner then isn't it? I find it hard to believe that some place the homeowner has paid $599 to and received a bunch of signs, a few forms, and baseball hat from will really give a toss once the customer's cheque clears or their credit card goes through.

But that's OK. I mean that's the wonderful thing about a free market economy; people are free to decide who to use for the services they need. My experience has been that a lot of homeowners who have gone the DIY route either get burned or quickly tire of the amount of work involved and do end up going with a Realtor. I think a lot of the reason they think it's a walk in the park to sell their home themselves is because these DIY and FSBO sites blather on long and loud about how using a Realtor is a waste of money, you can do it just as well yourself, blah, blah, blah. Then they try it and find out that a) it wasn't that easy and b) they're now out a few hundred buck for the lessons they've just learned.

I know some people have gone this route and had a successful transaction but I think those ones are the exceptions rather than the norm. In this litigious age in which we live I can see a day soon where one of these sell-it-yourself deals goes horribly wrong and one of the parties loses big. I wonder where the FSBO site they used will be then. Most likely as far away as possible.

Dee, I don't presume to speak for Dave (or anyone else for that matter) but I don't think the issue he has is with title companies. sign companies, etc. who are providing services to the real estate industry. I think if one of those companies presumed to take the place of a Realtor that the problem arises. That and the fact that the ones who do this generally skirt existing laws that we, as Realtors, are bound by and basically do whatever they want. That's why I'm against their particular business model. If they want to compete, great. Let's all compete using the same rule set. Once that happens you'll see these guys either drop out of the game or jack their prices up because you can't afford to stay in this game and provide true full service for $599.

Merry Christmas everybody.

Jerry

We are all in the Real estate business, there are Mortgage brokers, appraisers, inspectors, real estate agents, builders and they are all in the real estate industry - thanks to Dee for the clarification.

Our position is not that we are replacing the real estate agents and we are not sliding under any regulations here in Ontario or anywhere else we operate. While we do replace some of the work an agent does (write-up, photos, putting the listing online), the homeowner also has to take some of the responsibility (manage the appointments, conduct the showings and negotiate the best price on THEIR terms). Finally, the lawyer has to do a bit more work as well (write up the offer). Real estate agents will always be around and the good ones will prosper in the changing real estate world.

We are a marketing company that gives homeowners a more professional approach to selling their own property. This is a transaction that has been done since time immemorial (longer than real estate agents have bee around) it is not a new concept. Ask any agent why I should use them over another agent and often you will hear that they do a better job of "marketing" the home to others. For a private seller, the same holds true, the better the marketing, tools and exposure, the better chance they will sell – as long as they are priced correctly. Gone are the days of the hardware store sign on the lawn. We provide the best marketing and professional tools in the business (and better than many brokerages).

Jerry - With respect, you couldn't be further from the truth when you say that we "don't give a toss once the cheque clears". This might be the case with many FSBO sites where a 16 year old kid runs a server in his basement and takes Visa cards - we are a bit different and provide a great deal of support throughout the private sale process, within reason of course – after all, they are the ones selling the house, not us.

Merry Christmas!

Ok. I think I understand now. I do value your opinions and see that we are not "trashing" someone.

In the past, we've had posts on discount brokers versus full-service and it was a war. I got so tired of the same old fights that I stopped posting and really being involved in the board. I like a free and open market, but the consumer should not be hurt.

You have valid issues and it's too bad that real estate will always be one of the industries subject to fly-by-night operations.

Just like the guy who hosts a backyard BBQ for a neighbour thinks he could run a restaurant.

Or because you stayed in hotel once you could run it better than the manager they had.

Your posts make it clear you really have no idea what a “real” real estate agent does.

Marketing is the easiest part, but you make it look hard.

It’s a con, designed to feed into peoples greed.

You tell them exactly what they want to hear,
Take $ 500.00 from them.
Standby and watch as they waste several months going in circles.
Then try to recover their money for them by “referring” them to any Realtor that will pay.

Historically, in times like these people like you enjoy a short spurt of public acceptance because of the story you tell ...
just like the snake oil peddlers of another era.

But it’s short lived and then you fade away.

To call all homeowners "Greedy" for selling privately or using a private sale marketing company is disrespectful, I sure hope you do not use the term greed when you call upon a private sale and solicit their business. I can see you at their door: “Why are you selling privately? Oh come on, don’t be so greedy I’ll sell your house for you.”

My greedy clients have saved nearly $450000.00 so far this year - I feel pretty good about that and so do they.

We have all seen FSBO sites come and go over the years. You can learn from their lack of success and so can we. We are a very different company to most of the others - you might have realized that already.

This topic was supposed to be about specific examples of experiences with these companies. I started in on the topic because I agreed with the post. You have turned it into an unprofessional rant that you "OWN" the real estate business and that we have no right to be doing what we are doing. Guess what, you don't own the real estate business. That home stager you work with is IN the real estate business, as it the mortgage broker you work with and the company that supplies you your glossy post cards. We are too - and just because we are not "status quo" means that many in the business will not like us. I work with a home stager and a mortgage broker too - the same ones used by the real estate agents in my community; we are all in the business of real estate.

If you would like to start a different topic and debate why people should not sell privately or use the services of a marketing company – go for it, I would welcome some professional debate rather than a rant. Now back on topic: I would like to hear your specific examples of the failures/misrepresentations of these “marketing companies” in your day to day experience.

I think that Sheldon started this topic because he has a large marketing company in Edmonton that takes a more aggressive and negative approach to talking about real estate agents. Perhaps they misrepresent the truth, perhaps someone has taken over a Private listing, increased the price by $50k and sold the home?

It is true that I started the post seeing that the company in my area has clearly crossed the line of misrepresentation. Their signs state they are a "commission free realty" , Their justifications are quite in some cases beyond outrageous but since they are not regulated they have been able to slink by thus far.

I do agree though that there is a purpose and a place for all models that have mutual respect and follow standards of conduct. Until that time the everybody will have to continue to work as hard as they can to get their message out to their consumer.

some people in our industry have done a very poor job at explaining to the consumer what we do. For instance just understanding and utlizing the power of the MLS can make people money.

Saying someone saved money is a something that can easily be tossed into marketing...The reality is many of the people who represent themselves don't save money and jepoardize one of their biggest assets.

From my experiences with E&O I can tell you that by the time the lawyers write it up a number of representations have been made and it is too late to put those Pandoras back in the boxes from which they came. The sellers are going to have to live with how they made the deals what they said and how things were written. There is a going to be a large number of people who negotiated poorly thinking they save a commission but because of the terms of the deal and the price obtained they saved nothing and forgot to factor in their own time and effort.

Example vs example. I could show you in number of cases where we negotiated extremely successfuly for our clients against people who represented themselves or where I sold a property for significantly more (for the same type of property - $45000. more on one condo in the same project that the seller sold on their own and then the marketing company boasts how this clever sole saved the commission. And so on. However I do disagree with you Dave. Marketing is not the easiest part. It is the part that our industry is struggling with hence the existence of marketing companies.

I don’t consider it the least bit unprofessional to speak loudly and clearly when I see something that I know to be intentionally misleading being put forward as fact.

Your company has 2 pillars in the advertising they do to attract customers:

1. 0% Commission
2. A complete money back guarantee when you fail

Which one is not designed to feed into peoples greed ????

When I meet people who have made a mistake and then come to face reality I make it perfectly clear …… you get what you pay for ……

They tend to agree.

You may not like the language, but I notice you haven’t said anything I’ve written about the way you do business is incorrect.

I consider it a tremendous privilege and responsibility to help people with the largest investment in their lives. To help them build wealth, family security, educate their children and provide for their retirement by giving careful, informed counsel and guidance.

I’m offended by fly by night con men that pick out the hot buttons and take advantage of folks with no responsibility or conscience.

The fact that you exist does not in itself give you credibility, your actions speak to the type of business you run.

I agree Sheldon, and would love to discuss this with you. The industry has done a very poor job of keeping up with “perception”.

By that I mean .. “80% of buyers use the internet”

Buyers think .. I need to be there, without understanding how ineffective “being there” may be. We both know without proper SEO, and associated marketing being on the internet can be a total waste of time and nothing more than a sales pitch.

Then we have the web companies that know a lot about SEO but nothing about real estate trying to snag our leads then sell them back to us.

We also have the national franchises not knowing what to do about the internet / mls / agent sites ….. it’s very complicated and leaves the door open for opportunists.

And that’s what I’m referring to … this guy uses a national web site with little to no SEO, no local market presence ~ a buyer couldn’t trip on the site, and if they did couldn’t find the home they were looking for. Couple that with a print ads and you’ve got the total package.

0% commission – money back guarantee ~ and only $ 500.00 up front

That’s the easiest marketing I know of …

Cheers ............ Dave

Dave, please do not keep this going, I do not want to turn it into an advertisement for our services – it was again supposed to be a frank discussion on what the marketing companies do wrong to mislead the public. Some do mislead by misrepresenting commissions saved or in the wording on their signage – it is a good topic of debate. Let’s not argue whether or not people sell homes privately and when they do they could benefit from a bit of marketing beyond a “4 Sale” sign on the lawn – you will lose.

I would challenge you to find any of our clients that feel we have conned them into selling privately. I think you realize we are not a fly by night group of con men – perhaps that is the threat? We are a business that is ranked in the top 25 franchises to own according to the Canadian Franchise Association. This is not a fly by night group.

Here is reality for you Dave (I do not want this forum to be self promotion but in this case I need to back up the argument):

Today I put up a SOLD sign. The home had been listed for three months with a local real estate agent (one of the top producers) and priced around $220000.00. It did not sell and the advice of the agent after three months was to lower the price. They did and called us and listed it for $214900.00 at the end of October. They conducted four open houses and sold it today for $209000.00. They probably spent a total of 10 hours in the sales process. They paid no commission (I like the term No commission rather than 0% - better grammar).

They called me, I did not con them and I don’t believe you could have gotten them any more money in their pocket; one of the top producers had the chance. Not to knock the agent for not selling it, but the home was priced too high for the market – simple economics. It hit the right market price today, fortunately for the seller; our sign was on the lawn.

Real estate agents sell a lot of homes Dave…it is true, and most of them do a very good job at it. Or argument is that people do sell their own homes and the internet is making it easier (remember, 80% look online) – we can provide a professional approach to marketing their home for them and, we they sell they can save a lot of money. Many homes are sold privately here in Canada and around the world and the number is increasing. Get used to it and learn from it don’t just call all of us a bunch of con artists.

Sheldon is right – marketing is not the easy part. Companies like us in the market will raise the bar on what has been the norm when it comes to marketing real estate. Poor agents think that marketing a home begins and ends at taking some blurry photos and putting them on the MLS website. Good agents realize that marketing means a whole lot more than this. Marketing also means marketing yourself, getting yourself seen (in a positive light) in the community and on blogs etc. Unfortunately, much of the marketing budget on a home comes out of the agents pocket (hire a professional photographer, do a virtual tour, TV exposure more print advertising etc.). For the agents that want to get beyond simply using the MLS website for their marketing; unfortunately THEY pay for this – not the brokerage. I see this as a problem in the traditional real estate model, perhaps another topic that can be started…

Easy Dave, while I do not wish to debate you, the fact is, that home was overpriced from the start by at least $10,000. The purchaser overpaid for the home last year and circumstances changed and they want " the market to help compensate them for that" at a loss I agree but the market evaluation for that home was not what they were asking. Thirdly you forgot to mention that in our market our home prices as well as demand has gone down almost 5% since June and this house simply missed the boat on timing and apparently did not adjust to changing market conditions for summer or fall prices. Fourth while i believe the agent in question is in fact a good agent he cannot make people do something if they do not take his advice. Fifth never confuse production with quality in any field. So what is my point, you have every right to be here and to run a business but there are always two sides to every story so choose your examples carefully. I happen to work with this agent, have seen the CMA, and know that this was a difficult situation. This house should have sold for more had it been priced properly in the first place at the time it first listed. I feel that you make your points but that your example of self promotion as you put it may be flawed (in this case anyway).

Now I think Dave's point was that his company is more professional then many of these outfits and that he agreees with Sheldon. I feel that of the companies in my area that try this model of business that Dave's company is better then the rest in the delivery of services to the client. They do actually promote the property in print and online as well as provide photos, signs, customer support and more. While if I was going to sell my home I would use a Realtor(tm) and have in the past,I also feel that for those that want to try it themselves his company is the best alternative. Actually they provide more for less then one discount brokerage I can think of (wink).

Thanks for the comments Chad. At least some can see the difference between different levels of service providers. And this is exactly my point. You cannot put all of the FSBO “marketing” companies in the same category. There are many out there that take the money and that is all you get a listing on some bad website that gets no traffic. They are certainly allowed to be in business. The joy of a free market economy is that they can be in business and the consumer will decide which path to take: Internet FSBO, full service brokerage or somewhere in between. We all need to find our niche.

Of course we have a right to run a business and I appreciate that acknowledgement, but when someone chooses to discredit what we do with rhetoric and slurs, we have a right to vigorously defend what we do and if that means by example then so be it. Some people (like Dave) need specific examples and this was a good one because it was timely. Dave knows who we are – I am sure he prospects on our website all the time – we have a franchisee in Cobourg as well.

Of course there are always at least two sides to every situation but the basics are simple economics. You allude to this in your argument, the market changes and the price must change accordingly. The fact that this agent did not sell the home despite a suggested price reduction is the same reason probably most of our unsuccessful clients have not sold. Sure the market has slipped a bit and the home needed to be priced lower to sell perhaps. This client decided to reduce the price a wee bit and go it alone. I suggested that he should furnish the home – would this have gotten it sold for more, or quicker? Perhaps. He decided not to furnish it. We’ll never know the “what if” factor, had he re-listed with another agent and we’ll never know the “what if” had he listed with us in May or June.

Maybe, but then the debate becomes different such as branding, exposure, mls, internet web presence and more and seeing as it is the holiday's I decline that debate for now. As I stated I would and have sold via a realtor( before I was liscensed and after) I have a better undestanding of marketing then many, due to my education (marketing degree) and work experience( 6 years in marketing for Coca-Cola) so I know why I have and will always list with a realtor. That said If I was to choose to try it myself I would probably choose your model over any others in our area and over certain limited service brokerages. The other Dave I can't speak for and won't. Have a great New Year.

I would not expect to hear otherwise from someone who pays dues to CREA. You have to believe in what you do for a living otherwise it is hard to get up in the morning.

But marketing is not just the knowledge and experience, it is the tools, having access to them and using them. I have seen people try to sell privately by spending countless hours building their own website, taking decent photos of a messy house and putting their house "online". Only to have a cheap sign on the lawn and stop there. Waste of time and effort.

Happy New Year!

LOL, in truth it is my RE/MAX dues that keep me getting up in the morning. Cheers

Get me a hanky ….

After 16 years of successful real estate and prospering through several market swings I can make these observations:

1. There will always be a part of the population that wants to do it themselves, just like some people change their own oil and call it a tune up
2. At the end of boom market as prices adjust and sellers don’t want to face the reality of falling values the number of people who think going it alone may be an option increases
3. FSBO companies exist to take advantage of that group and have the greatest “con” rate at that time.
4. Will the odd house sell ? Of coarse, (There'll always be great examples of both sides of that argument.)

Catering to the idea that “marketing” … having a web site and running some ads is the hardest or most important part of putting a deal together shows how little you care about the process. Add in the “try us it won’t cost anything anyway” sales pitch and you hit all the right buttons to attract a person who doesn’t understand real estate and is afraid they’ll lose money when they sell..

The FSBO companies serve only themselves, the home that would sell anyway sells, the others are left to flounder …. They make the money in either case.

Historically they gain in these times, but will fade in a year or two when sellers find they’re missing the market by being on the fringe.

But the FSBO Guy will always be there .. and may prosper … if he’s well spoken and a good salesman there’ll always be people who feel they want to try… and. If he can line up several starving agents to pay the sellers the $ 500.00 when they list.

Please understand I don’t question your right to be a business … after all .. as a Realtor I exist in the purest form of capitalism I’m aware of … 100% commission paid only when I succeed ~ I’m totally exposed, no safety net, no benefits, no pension. If I can’t do what I do well I don’t eat, and my kids don’t go to university. And I have all the risk and liability when I fail.

But the fact that you are in a business does not give you credibility, or value and pointing out your short comings is not “rhetoric or slurs” .. you are what you are and I’m simply shining a light on it

The home that IS PROPERLY PRICED for the market sells Dave! There is no secret formula to that – Economics 101. Private sellers tend to overprice their homes – Simple. When this happens with an agent, the homeowner feels that they have no choice but to lower the price, after all, they are using “the most powerful tool possible” – a real estate agent and the MLS. They reduce the price and it sells. If they take their business to another agent after three months and then reduce the price and it sells – I bet you say – “well I could have sold the home for $10000.00 less”. Do you know how many times I say “I’ll bet my client could have sold privately if they were priced $10000.00 less”?

Your argument that private sale companies gain during times when RE values increase does not hold water. When was the last real slide in values here in Ontario? 10 years ago or more? No internet? How about the fact that during the last three years in one of the hottest RE markets in Canada – Edmonton – there is a marketing company there that has come out of nowhere to now hold a significant share of the RE market. If you believe their own accounts, they hold about 30% of the market in Edmonton (Sheldon started this thread as a result of them being in the market and some of the things they do/say – he probably has better numbers, but those numbers are very significant). They have had success during very hot times in Alberta. Many of our franchisees have had great success during an upswing in the last three years. So watch us grow – during boom times and times of “market correction”.

Of course you will not think there is "Value" in what we do - because you don't like it. If you have discount brokers in your market, I am sure you would argue that with them too. Our clients see the value and that is who counts. I could go on and on about the "shortcomings" of the traditional real estate model as well...maybe another time...

Wow !! you’re kidding right ??

If that’s the sum total of your ability it’s worse that I thought.

Certainly, at times price is a factor … but during my career I’ve sold many homes (100’s) the market would indicate were over priced, there are many other factors that come into play that can impact on the sellers ultimate net.

But because you’re not involved you wouldn’t know and couldn’t help … so for your guys, I guess it’s all about price.

It sounds like when you’re sitting at the kitchen table you really don’t know anymore about it than the home owner … you’re just the guy who paid a couple hundred bucks for a franchise and got some stickers for his car (that read “Pay 0% commission).


Just for your own benefit. If you insist on being near the real estate business you should come to grips with the fact that you don’t have “clients”.

In real estate law, referring to someone as a “client” infers an agency relationship and a level of representation that includes a fiduciary obligation, duties to them that you’re not legally allowed, or clearly able to provide.

You don’t have clients, you have customers, the same as any newspaper or printing shop does.

Calling them your clients could BE MISLEADING, making people to think that you actually are a professional, and provide a higher level of service than you do,

In your earlier posts you said you don’t do that.

I think you are having as much fun with this as I am Dave - I admire your passion for your business, you must really feel you are doing a great service for your CLIENTS.

I looked online for the definition client and found no mention of a real estate agent:

cli·ent /ˈklaɪənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[klahy-uhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person or group that uses the professional advice or services of a lawyer, accountant, advertising agency, architect, etc.
2. a person who is receiving the benefits, services, etc., of a social welfare agency, a government bureau, etc.
3. a customer.
4. anyone under the patronage of another; a dependent.
5. Computers. a workstation on a network that gains access to central data files, programs, and peripheral devices through a server.
6. client state.
7. (in ancient Rome) a plebeian who lived under the patronage of a patrician.
–adjective 8. being a regular customer: a client company.
9. economically, and often militarily, dependent upon a more prosperous, more powerful nation.

Reference:
"Client." Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 30 Dec. 2006. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Client>

There was mention of an advertsing agency, or someone who is a repeat customer (and we will have many of them). Are you going to trademark that word too?

We have had many homes sell for more than what the market might suggest, happens all the time. But the fact is is that it was priced correctly for someone in the market. When you strip it down to the basics, it is price. Sure you can change the condition of the product; fluff up the house with the services of our Home stager or paint some rooms, all of those impact the value but you cannot move the home, make the railroad tracks go away etc. You cannot tell a homeowner what their home is "worth", you can only make an educated guess, but you only know what it is worth when a transaction takes place.

Hey, I did not get the stickers when I bought my franchise...

I know how you feel…. I looked on the internet on all 3 major search engines for the terms “guelph real estate””guelph property””guelph homes” .. the 3 most common real estate search terms .

You were no where to be found ?? not 1 return .. on any engine.

Although this one came up … http://ontario.propertysold.ca/guelph it looks like you competitor is doing a better job than you are with this part.

You site is totally ineffective as a vehicle for exposure to random real estate searches.

Your marketing relies totally on newspaper ads and drive by’s. I guess you’ll tell me that’s worth $ 500.00. and it’s really a “no risk, money back deal anyway … so why not try”.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

As I said to you, “client” infers an agency relationship. In real estate this is a very critical threshold.

The legal concept of “client” or “principal” stems from the law of agency, which comes from English common law and has been adopted since the settlers in North America ….

It exists in legislation in every province and every state in the union… there are very strict laws that govern the conduct of agents / clients / customers and how they interact with each other. Real estate agents must obey the laws .. but, in Ontario under the Real Estate and Business Brokers Act they apply to all citizens. Everyone must obey.

The Real Estate Council of Ontario was created several years ago to enforce the Act. They’re mandate is to protect the public interest by enforcing the Act for all citizens – with all citizens

And there’s the rub …you like to talk the talk … but you don’t know enough about it to even look it up.

Understand, the law was written to protect the public … and it’s the perception of the public that will be used to weigh your guilt

It would just take one call to the registrar from a disgruntled person who realized you mislead them saying “He said I was his client, I thought he was my agent” and you could be looking down the wrong end of a whole lot of trouble … saying “I didn’t know” won’t help …. …

I found 4 references in 20 seconds on 2 different engines.

I don’t enjoy having to defend my profession from fly by night amateurs that try to take advantage of people at what is often they’re weakest time .. but I’ll be here .. doing it every day because it’s right.

(edited by Dave for grammar)

Hey Dave,

Type in "Private sale Guelph" and see what happens with Google. We will work on the rest of the search terms later. If based on purely search criteria, that other FSBO company would have a lot more listings than us. That is the point - we are different and have approximately thirty times more active listings than them...(they have about 2 we have about 60 that are active). It is obviously not SEP that has given us 60 listings in the area. If all you are hoping for is your potential "customers" typing in Cobourg real estate" into Google, you are sunk. Again, marketing is more than that, even in the internet age.

Again, we have clients, as they will be repeat customers... of a marketing company that does a professional job. We are not real estate agents, brokers etc, and ALL of our clients know that when they have us do the marketing for them. We are a marketing company as the topic of the post implies.

I continue to enjoy defending our profession too - as Private Sales Professionals in a growth industry as I know that our "profession".

Is that what you tell the people you’re trying to con ?? …

You make it sound like your web presence will be better for the seller.

It’s a proven fact that when a person is looking for real estate on the inernet, far and away the most common search terms are “real estate””property”and “homes” coupled with the name of the community they want to look in., if your not on the first page you don’t exist.

Any moron can rank well for an obscure search term … the point is, it’s totally ineffective and a waste of time.

To suggest otherwise would at best be misleading and at worst an out and out lie to your customers.

You remind me of the guy that found new hammer in his stocking and couldn’t figure out how to make it cut wood.


In fact that happens about 8 times a month on average … I understand my business, my industry and my profession.

I speak in plain language to all, and I don’t mislead or rely on “buzz words” and “no risk money back guarantees” to con people into trying my services. Random organic internet searches are simply a part of it .. one of the “tools” in my box … but in my case a very sharp one that actually does what it’s supposed to do.

You see, I have the tools, a complete set, they’re top quality, they all do what they’re supposed to, and I know how to use them ..

A claim we’ve proven your not qualified or able to make..

And that’s the trouble with companies like yours, you use half truths, tricks and slick sales terms to sneak into a business you’ve demonstrated you clearly don’t understand and play fast and loose with the largest single investment most families ever make.

You are like a dog with a bone. Give it up already.

Insults like this are childish and serve no purpose in a forum like this Dave. If anything I think is shows a lack of professionalism.

I hope it is a fruitful year for you. I am sure glad we have a strong franchisee in Cobourg.

Good luck in 2007 and try not to remain too angry we are in business.

It’s easy to be relentless … I’m right.

In every post in this thread I’ve pointed out a negative aspect or challenged directly something about your business model, your knowledge, your approach.

You have refuted none, you have defended none …. with a sound argument. In fact you’ve dug a deeper hole.

You ask to debate … but have nothing to of substance to say, offering only catch phrases and regurgitating the company brochure.

If that offends you so be it, because it certainly offends me..

I think it's great for the public to see how empty your "business" really is.

I’ll be here as long as it takes

You keep trying to change the debate here Dave. What are my points?

1. Do Real estate agents sell a lot of homes? Yes they do
2. Can homeowners sell their own homes? Yes they can
3. If they were to do such a thing (as crazy as it is to you), would they benefit from some marketing and professional tools outside of the Canadian tire store sign on the lawn? Yes they would.
4. Can homeowners that make the decision to sell privately save money in the process? Yes they can.
5. Are there companies out there that misrepresent statistics or use their websites to misrepresent a transaction that says "SOLD" when it in fact was sold by a real estate agent? Yes there are.
6. Should every Private sale marketing company be painted with the same brush? No.
7. Should all Real estate agents be painted with the same brush? No. (that one was in there to help you answer #6 correctly ;-) )

This is the point. If you think you can argue against any of the above, good luck and it will show what your self serving, narrow minded argument is:
That you just do not want us around.

Here is all I have heard from you so far:

Anyone who is not status quo; a real estate agent with a full service brokerage is a lowdown uneducated con artist that lies and cheats $500 out of the naive, unsuspecting public (who are greedy for even considering selling privately in the first place).

I think that is your problem - you do not give credit to anyone other than yourself. You do not give credit to the public for being informed and you do not give anyone else any credit unless they are an agent. Your clients are not a bunch of idiots and there are people out there that are smarter than you (Don't worry - I don't mean me; I am still trying to cut wood with a hammer) just accept it and move on. If you treat people with decency and respect it will pay you dividends. But you are a lot smarter than me so you probably already know that.

Part of the problem is that the majority of people tend to enter into any endeavour based on price alone. When that happens it's often a recipe for disaster.

They decide not to use a Realtor because some FSBO companies tell them that doing so will cost them 6%. This is wrong from the get-go as commissions are not set in stone they're negotiable. Also, a lot of these DIY sites will infer or even outright say that the agent gets that 6%, again another lie.

So they've had it put into their head that it's better to use a $500.00 DIY operation thinking that (or being told outright) that they will get service that is on par with that of a licenced Realtor. You and I both know that, for the most part, that is not the case. Sure, some Realtors a re better than others; they're the ones who tend to last in the business.

Again, what I would like to see is these FSBO and DIY sites be made to play by the same rules we have to play by with respect to advertising and not misleading the public. As it stands now I think they have an unfair advantage in that they are free to say pretty much whatever they like without any sort or recourse. I have a strict set of rules I have to adhere to whenever I advertise. And why? To protect the public from me making outlandish claims just to get them to list their home with me.

I guess the difference between a Realtor and a DIY site is that as a Realtor I want to provide service to people and make sure they get what they're looking for. You may not beilive me of course but that's your decision. If all I was after was a quick buck I could go the flat fee route and tell people I'll list their home for $500.00 or $600.00, put it on MLS with a $50.00 co-broke, and then do nothing. Why would I? I already have my money, what do I care if the house sells or not? See my point? I think this is what some of these FSBO sites do, throw the listing on a website and then go cash the customer's cheque. Will the home sell? Ah, who cares, the FSBO site got paid.... That's the business model that rubs me the wrong way.

But I think your attitude will be that as a Realtor I'm part of the problem, charging inflated commisssions, etc., etc. Hey, it's a free country (for now) so you're quite welcome to think what you like. As for me, I have no trouble sleeping at night as a result of my real estate dealings with people.

Jerry

Jerry, thanks for some professional debate. I am very clear with my clients that commissions are negotiable. I am also clear that it is not the agent who takes what they pay - it is split and split and split again - often in many cases leaving the listing agent with nothing or even going into the hole after they pay their expenses. In fact I correct people when they say things like “That agent made $15000.00 when they sold our last house”. Untrue and I do put things into perspective for them (although I am sure Canadave won’t believe it).

But the perception in the public eye (and maybe pushed by SOME FSBO sites) is that that is what the agent makes. And your industry needs to do a better job of making this clear. You know the stickers on the Gas pumps that you see when you fill up that breaks down the cost of fuel so we don’t think that the oil companies are gouging us? You need something like this that breaks down the commissions.

But the bottom line for the homeowner is that the 4, 5, 6%, whatever that is, is what they pay and you (the agent) pay most of the costs.

Personally, this is what I see as the problem – it is the system that has been put in place where every big brokerage has to get a piece of the pie and there is little or no flexibility built into the model. The “negotiable” commission rates come, more often than not from the hungry listing agent who then has to advertise, pay their own fuel, desk fees, and pay for every photocopy they make.

When I advertise a home that has sold and commissions saved I base the numbers on 5% as this seems to be standard. If the home owner paid a buyers agent, I factor that in as 2.5%.

We do not say they are getting the same service for $549.00
Of course I believe you, if you work hard for your clients they will come back. I feel the same way; we want to provide the best service (within what is allowed and within our market) for our clients. For $549.00 you cannot even think about doing all that a real estate agent does. Heck – it probably costs at least ˝ of that just to put it on the MLS website.

Sorry ... I'll try harder

So far so good … but here’s where you hit the slippery slope .. in the spirit of keeping the discussion focused I’ll pose only one point at a time

How Do You Know ????

They can certainly save the commission. But that only means they’ve saved money if they sold for as much as the market can bear.

First Point – Pricing

In determining the price of anything a reasonable person will ask several questions –

What are other things like this available for now ?
What are other things like this selling for now ?
Are there any outside factors that contribute to this ?

This first question you can answer by accessing the realtors data base at mls .ca. But so can the home owner

The second question you have no way of answering in a timely manner. Sold prices are not public information, and therefore are not published. You could check the registry office every day to see what the sales prices were, but that would be very time consuming and the information would be 60, 90 maybe 120 days old. Certainly not current and possibly very misleading in a changing market. And you’d have to raise your fee to cover the cost of government copying.

The third question is more complicated …

You’d have to be fully aware of the existing inventory, not just the asking price, but the subjective influences that impact value – ie. the view, the neighbours, the updates, the back yard …

You’d have to have the same information for historical sales. Something you have no access to.

You’d have to be aware if there were factors that influenced either the buyer or seller . … these can really skew the stats. Again, something you don’t have access to

As a Realtor, I have access to all that information, and I’m required by law to use it. There are remedies in place if I don’t.

In summary, while the statement “you save money” may be a good sales pitch … in truth how do you gather data to competently establish price when you have no more information than the home owner ?

I have many specific examples where my clients are confident they saved money. I am too. Of course there is a “what if” factor in everything. What if it had been listed with an agent? Would it have sold for 3%, 5% 10% more? You were never given the chance to prove you could sell that particular home on that particular day it sold so who knows. But what if an agent suggested that they would list a home for $179000.00 and the homeowner sold it privately in 4 weeks for $182500.00? I could argue that not only did they save a lot of money, they made money too. But who knows, different agent, different day might have sold for $200000.00. We’ll never know but they almost listed with the agent for $179000.00 until I came along and “conned” them.

I could ask you the same question, how do you know you save people money? You cannot say that they could not have sold it themselves for the same price (or more) you don’t know. I am sure you can come up with arguments to strengthen your case and so could I – hard one to win either way.

Price:

We cannot give specific suggestions on price – you know, we are not licensed to do this.

But I have many suggestions on how people can get more information and gathering as much information as they can; they can come up with an informed estimate. And although you like to keep a tight grip on all that information, there is information out there.

So in a nutshell:

• One of our packages includes a Fair Market Evaluation of the client’s home by a local licensed real estate agent – this is what they would get if they were listing with a real estate agent anyway, using all of the data you have access to.
• Many of my clients have already spoken to several real estate agents before they even call me and have had several different “suggestions” on what they would list it for (not what it would sell for) – this is a practice I do not condone by the way. It seems there are a fair number of agents willing to give a “Free Home Evaluation with no obligation”
• People can call a licensed home appraiser and have this done for a few hundred dollars. These are professionals that appraise homes for a living and have access to all of the information necessary to come up with an estimate of the market value of the home.
• People can look online and in the newspapers at the asking prices of the homes in the area that are comparable and pay attention and follow them closely
• I have had clients phone the listing agents of homes in the area and ask what the home sold for. I have also had my clients knock in the neighbours door and ask what they sold for. In pretty much every case they were told what the home sold for.
• People can go onto the MPAC website and get a Comparables report for $40.00 comparing their home to others that have sold in the area
• Some of my clients have just ended a contract with a real estate agent – they have had three months to see what price did not sell the home.

What they do once they gather this information is strictly up to them, they set their price – which is often what happens with a real estate agent against the better judgment of the agent.

So there is information out there and people do use it to make an informed estimate on how to come up with an asking price. I like to think that our clients come up with an informed asking price, while you come up with an educated one. That is all you come up with is an asking price. And of course we educate them to the fact that they can change the existing home in order to command a higher price, renovations, staging, landscaping etc. They can do this before listing (advised) or make changes during.

Dave,

How is it you have clients?

Lastly you are correct that individual examples don't really tell you the story on how much someone could have gotten.

NAR did a study of 3000 private sales and the verdict suggest that sellers who sold on their own or sold through a marketing company sold on average 16% less than a comparable home sold on MLS.

Depending on the market it could be more or less. In Edmonton this summer if you sold through a marketing company you were hooped.

eg 1. comparable condo sold by the seller through a marketing company sold for $45000 less than a listing we sold on the very same day. There are very few sellers who are remotely competent enough to handle the nuances of multiple offers. I will include lawyers and judges in that category as well.

eg 2. Same marketing company suggested an appraiser to the seller who then listed their property. Because the appraiser is involved in sales after the fact he wasn't aware of the rate of acceleration of prices in our market. Seeing an opportunity my clients and I negotiated an offer that was accepted even though there were a couple other offers the seller had to consider. The buyers just didn't know how to present their offers. The appraiser who appraised it for the buyers indicated the buyers got the property for $50000 less than market value.

eg 3 Buyers of mine had a very difficult time competing with offers on MLS properties. We found a property being markted by a seller themselves and looked at the property we assessed at $30000 below market value. 11 other buyers saw the property at roughly the same time and some of them were writing up there offers outside the property. With my experience in writing offers, we had our offer written,and accepted prior to any other buyers even getting finished.

Now I will agree pricing is one aspect in market value and so is marketing, but so is negotiating. Most sellers are just not qualified to handle offers, legal matters and negotiatins especially on multiple offers.

In so far as examples are concerned they are easy to come by on both sides.

couple of points to ponder;
- a large portion of current listings are held by junior Realtors. Those with little experience and marketing 'savy'.
- the internet has empowered the general public.

Love it or hate it, times are a changing.

Thanks for the examples Sheldon - I am sure we are finally getting where you wanted the thread to go...

In a hot market like Edmonton where there are, in some cases multiple offers coming in it can be a juggling act - and I am sure there are some junior agents out there that have not handled themselves as well as they could have. But the multiple offer scenarios are very rare - especially here in Ontario at the moment, with the exception of some pockets probably.

I seem to remember seeing a condo example given on that Edmonton company's website where they said the private seller sold for more, again, examples can be shown on both sides of the argument.

The reality is much of the time the buyer sees the home and discusses price with the seller - a very candid conversation between two intelligent people. It doesn't need to be held in secret offices where paperwork get shuffled back and forth with a bunch of posturing. This is how it worked for me as I sold my home privately before buying my franchise.

I would not expect a report by the National Association of Realtors to report that private sellers were netting more money. Not surprising.

I have many cases where clients sold for more than what an agent had given a market value for. And I myself have only owned this franchise for less than a year. I also have examples of someone ending the contract with an agent, listing the next day with us for the same price and selling for only $5000.00 less than asking (in a soft market - not a hot one). Of course there are examples on both sides of the argument and in some of my cases, there is an argument that it pays to use an agent to buy the home as well. But bottom line is the buyers paid what they felt the home was worth and they are happy.

When the term client is synonymous with the word customer, as per the definition I used in this thread, I am not sure how anyone can say we do not have "clients". I just googled the word "client" with several large companies such as "Esso", "Westjet" and "Telus" and they all refer to their customers as clients and vice versa.

Maybe next month when you open an airline or gas refinery you will be able to use this argument….

But while you’re associating yourself with the real estate industry, the public will expect you to adopt the definitions as per that industries rules of standard practice. Otherwise it could very MISLEADING you’ve said you wouldn’t want to do that. The law is very clear, and you’d be liable for the remedies, fines and sanctions allowed for in the legislation. Of coarse you could always plead “ I Googled the word and Westjet said it was OK”


Staying On Topic ….. Point 1

So Your customers rely solely on other people who have no interest or liability to establish what their home is worth.

There’s no guarantee the others are telling the whole storey, or even the true story. And there’s no way for the home owner to verify.

The most reasonable route you suggested was to have an independent appraiser prepare a report …. It would be interesting to know the percentage of your customers that actually do that.

I would ask the question again … how can you be sure you’re establishing the right price if you’re basing it on hearsay, rumour ….. voodoo ??? It’s great to say “I’m confident I did OK, but if you can’t answer the question with facts and knowledge you’re just wishful thinking.

For the record …the real estate industry doesn’t keep a tight grip on the information, it’s legislated, until closing at which time it becomes a part of the public domain.

I think it is important for all of us realtors to make sure that we tell everyone that most FSBOs are sold by realtors.

Every time one of us sells a FSBO - talk to the seller and get an agreement to list for ONE DAY, then proceed as usual with a listed property that is sold. That way we will have proof that most FSBOs are in fact sold by realtors. After all, the sellers wind up paying the co-broke fee anyway.

I believe in the Ottawa area something like 85% are sold by realtors, most expire and a minimal percentage are sold by owners (the information I got at some point by the board).

What I have done in the past is print out the FSBOs then match them up with the MLS listings - another way to prove that FSBOs end up dealing with realtors either in the buying or selling end.

I had two clients in two different hot hot areas of the city who insisted on doing the FSBO thing (I sold them both properties as a buyer's agent). They both gave it a stab for a few weeks, and after a parade of nuts & nosy neighbours (and $ unqualified people) through their homes they decided it was a really silly way to try and sell their biggest asset. I gave them fair warning of the pitfalls, they thought they knew better and wanted to save money. Well, in the end they got professional service. Their lesson cost them an extra $600 in fees and some questionable people poking around their houses.

Another point for my local market. We have a lot of DND transfers here - as a rule they only deal with realtors. So far all of my DND clients love to receive auto notifications, virtual tours and lots of photos. I also preview homes for out of towners. Realtors provide great service!

What bothers me though is that long after a FSBO has listed witha Realtor their property still appears on the FSBO web site, etc. Dave from Property Guys claims that this is because it is up to the seller to remove it. That may be one thing. What I've found repeatedly is that once the property sells (through a Realtor offering a proper co-broke) is that the entry on the FSBO site seems to be updated to say that the home has sold with 0% commission which is not a matter of creative licence it is an outright lie.

I see the same thing you see Sheila, I see many homeowners try the DIY method and most eventually listing with a Realtor to actually get their home sold. I spent the entire summer chasing FSBO listings and got nowhere. Which is fine; people are certainly free to try to sell their house themselves. One couple had theirs listed on bytheowner.com. The scary thing was they had all their information on the ad; the address, home number, work numbers, cell numbers, etc. Talk about leaving yourself wide open.

I stated this previously.... if all I was interested in was making quick cash I would offer flat fee listings. Seller pays me $700 or $1000 and I list his home on MLS. I offer a $50 co-broke and then could care less if it sells. Why? Because I get paid up front. That seems to be the route a lot of these FSBO sites go. Take the cash and dash. Personally, I won't do it but that's just me. I've seen a few big franchise Realtors offering this model in Mississauga. At least they make it clear on their web site that they don't handle offers, etc. for you unless you convert to a full service contract with them.

With all these new FSBO and DIY sites whining about how they should get access to MLS I can see a day soon where they likely will get access. And that's the day things will go to hell in a handcart. They whine about how MLS should be open to everyone. No, it shouldn't. The day that happens is the day that any remaining shred of usability will vanish. Realtors anre the ones who are paying for the care and feeding of MLS currently. In return we get access to a system that has some integrity because there are strict and enforceable rules about what content is and is not allowed on the system. As soon as every Joe Blow gets access to the system it will deteriorate into a mere shadow of what it is now.

My answer is this. Want access to MLS? Become a Realtor. Easy, no? Do you whine to the LSUC because you don't have access to the same information systems that lawyers and judges have? I guess they should throw those wide open as well so that it's "fair" for everyone. I don't mind paying for MLS access. Someone has to care for and police the system otherwise it benefits no one. Just because a certain segment of the population doesn't have access to something doesn't mean the situation is unfair. Should the public have access to police databases? Absolutely not. Same thing with MLS.

Outsider who feel they should have access to MLS to make it fair for all should also agree to be bound by the same rules we have to abide by with respect to advertising and dealing with members of the public. But they don't want that now, do they? They want to have their cake and eat it too. I've had it up to here with everyone and his brother complaining that their rights are being violated because they don't have the same things someone else has. Get over it already. Want MLS access? Become a licenced Realtor and pay your board fees. That what the rest of us do.

Sorry for the rant but I'm sick to death of people and their incessant whining about life not being fair and how they're all so hard done by. Life's not fair. Deal with it and get on with your life. Or at least quit *****ing about it.

Jerry

I applaud the property guy for finding a "niche" market to assist sellers. The danger is IF they cross the line and dispense " perceived " advice or council and get involved in a lawsuit .. where they never intended to be......

Ok, I will bite. Do you mean get rid of MLS and move to a co-op wich would be members only wich would consist of lets say for ex. remax, lepage, c21, coldwell and maybe homelife or keller. A private data agreement that is only shared by certain companies. Interesting. If this is kinda of your point then rumour has it there maybe a "dark paper" or two floating around in some international offices out there looking into that. Sounds like the law society. Private member co-op....hhhmmmm. * this of course is a work of fiction and any references made here are strictly for the point of example, no above mentiond organization in whole or in part in any way has any knowledge of said example.*

Our MLS systems...

interesting thread. I personally love the FSBO sites. They add credibility to our profession and provide us with quality leads. There's nothing quite like it when you visit the first open house held by a FSBO. They look at you like a leech and give you the old "Oh no, I don't need an agent" speech with a hint of laughter in it. Then you visit them a month later and their tune changes. It takes them a while to realize that all those "stats" on a FSBO website cannot be confirmed and are in fact there to promote more suckers, sorry, I mean "clients" to sign up. They also advertise clicks and not unique visits which is also deceiving. It's amazing how many homeowners are still convinced that an open house and a lawn sign is all you need to sell a house! That's what the FSBO sites are relying on.
There's a few sites out their that I'm convinced are owned by Realtors. When the home doesn't sell, they conveniently refer you to the realtors on their list.
The part that gets me is the ads I see for these type of sites trying to sell franchises. They make it look so easy. "All you do is buy a franchise, visit homeowners and save them thousands of dollars - it's that easy!" Ya okay... let's kiss goodbye that severance package you received when you got laid off from Nortel!

Thanks,
Cliff

Love this...Yesterday one of the local marketing companies annouced only 10% of their properties were selling. A number of those were no doubt agent assisted but the amount of commission saved is based on a no trackable sales reporting system. Nice. I want one of those systems...Hey mr regulator guys...wake up and protect the public, that's what you do right...oh [censored]...i am one of those regulator guys...forget it...buereaucrats run everything.