OK, I know I may be blasted for this one but right now I truly believe that NAR is the only thing thing standing in the way of progressive change in the industry (of which I am a member).
Why do I say that?
Let me also make this very clear: Zillow is a laughing stock for those who try to use it or the info provided.
If the NAR did not protect us then I see a system where-by you would have (several at first) but then 1-3 major sites taking over for the MLS. As long as there is more than 1 there is not a monoply. Houses would be listed for a fee by the sellers, say $29.95 a month. The seller could also list with as many sites as he/she wants or the site could offer discounts for exclusivity.
Who sets the price? Well of course that would be the seller, but I believe the appraiser would be hired by the seller to help set that price thereby making the appraisers job expanded in the customer service category. Cost maybe around $300.00 for this service.
The seller would however be responsible for showing the property to perspective buyers. At this point I believe there is still room for there to be a buyers agent for those buyers who do not know how to surf the net or have the will power to call someone who is selling their house. The agent could theoretically set up the showing and search for propert for a nominal fee - $69 - $99.00 for that service to the buyer.
A lawyer would handle the closing and paperwork (pretty much as it is done now) and the forms would be fairly standardized and the lawyer/mediator could have a pre-closing/ negotiation meeting for the paperwork negotiation/ signing. The lawyer would still take his fee from the closing cost.
Who keeps the deal on track? A program could easily keep the sale on track, even one that is offered through the web site. The buyer shops for free. When the buyer is ready to make a offer he/she can create an account (lasting up to 3 months/ non-automatic re-subscription (I hate those))for that same price $29.95. In that time the buyer can make offers on the property/properties of his/her choosing. Once a seller accepts an offer a program would take over the track of events to follow depending on the agreed upon time-line.
The seller still has do the termite/pest control letter by such and such a date and by using this program (it would follow a transaction number) when that inspection was done the pest control company could even be wired in to automatically authenticate it the moment they have finished the inspection.
Likewise the buyer can still get the inspector and the inspector could do the same thing.
The seller could specify the lawyer to use and the agreed upon earnest money can be paypaled/ wired ETC... directly into the holding account to be dispersed by the lawyer.

That would all be fairly easy to set up and very cost effective to all parties.
I would like to hear more ideas on how we as Realtors can remain more relevant in this technological society?
I don't want to hear "customer service" because in many ways cost trumps customer service. Discount brokers are also not the answer. I believe in the future the industry as a whole is going to need a major face lift to remain relevant.
So in the future what will be a Realtors role in the transaction?

Jason,
I got new for you. If you believe you are being replaced by the internet then you may as well find yourself a job right now.

The internet is just one more tool that buyers and sellers are using to search for or attempt to place a value on their homes.

What we as agents/broker bring to the table is our knowledge, experience and skills to guide them through the process of buying and selling homes.

Remember all those Dot.Com companies in various industries that thought they could run a virtual business? The vast majority are not with us any longer and those that are adapted to a more stable model.

Sure a person can sell their own home but the overwhelming majority do not have the time nor do they want the hassles that go with the process. If you think that the process is somehow going to get less complicated then you are way off as long as there are governmental regulations to deal with.

What have you been smoking?

Just keeping a deal together requires cartwheels and contortions.

This is not what I meant but it is exactly the response I pictured.
You need to remember, IBM once said that no one will ever have a need for a computer in their home, well...look how that turned out.
As far as the dotcom bust...More online dot com companies have been started in the last 2 years than the entire time leading up to the bust as reported by CNN and the Drudge Report. Are the new models stable? Sure but they are innovative.
If a industry does not innovate it stagnates.
Remember the travel agencies before priceline?
Why wait and see, why not be innovative and come up with something more than "let me guide you."
By the a program could also take a lot of the government aspects into account where a person could try and get away with something.
I'm not saying I want Realtors to dissappear. I'm saying that as far as the sale of a home the Realtor is becoming less important and I would like to find away to be of more value than the sum of the words "let me guide your transaction."
We don't really sell real estate. We really don't negotiate anything, we can guide a persons decision but ultimately thats not negotiation. Negotiation could be defined as 2 parties and a lawyer goiing into a room and hammering out the details. Thats negotiation.
Oh yeah, we negotiate our commission. 6% or I walk or I if I cut it I cut something in the marketing. Wow, I negotiate my client for my benifit, thats not negotiating the transaction.
Yeah people don't want to deal with it but seriously it could all be done just as easy if not easier automated.
So really, why doesn't the NAR come up with something more innovative than "let me guide your transaction?"
The old guard needs to wake up and see that it won't ALWAYS be this way.
I'm a member of the NAR but only because I have to be. The NAR is somewhat like a union, good for it's members but a real drain on innovation.
So, what can we as Realtors do to make ourselves more important?

Why do you think we are looked as as less scrupulous than a Lawyer?

Jason,
You may not negotiate for your clients but I do for mine and I market my properties as well. What my clients are really paying for is my 17+ yrs of education and experience. I solve problems and get to the closing table and that is my job!

The internet is a tool and I do not see it replacing agents anytime in the future. Agents just need to effectivley utilize this tool.

So Jason just how long have you been in the real estate business and what did you do before you joined our dying breed.....?

How do you negotiate for your clients?

The internet is a tool. Period.

I used to be in automotive finance. Some guy pointed his finger at me in 1995 or 96 and told me that dealer personnel would be dinosaurs by 2000 because of this newfangled internet.

Well, its 2006 and the auto business is working the same way it has for decades. Saavy dealers use the internet to ease transaction difficulties and to make the entire process more efficient.

And to boot, dealers are making more money per unit (as a percentage) now than ever done before!

RE is the same way. Sure, some people will get out because of the perceived threat of the internet taking over. That's ok.

The internet, in all its glory, doesn't have a conscious. It doesn't know how to read peoples emotions, it doesn't know how to ask questions in order to get to the gist of a person's point of view. In general, the internet can't sell!

I am not at all afraid of what is to come. Like it or not, a good portion of our protocols are in place because not of convenience, but of necessity. The day the internet provides human service is the day I move to a deserted island.

So Jason, since you enjoy assumptive questions, how long have you been beating your wife?

Unless you have a fact or an article I'd recommend you avoid such questions in the future.

******

Discounted or do it yourself approaches have been available for 20 years, and they have been supported by powerful internet sites for the last 3-5 years.

I'll send $100 to your favorite charity, if you find me a discounter than has more than 10% market share in terms of closed volume in their county.

You won't.

When traditional franchise systems can consistently generate 20-30% market share, and traditional brokerages as a whole handle 80-90% of transactions in a given market they don't have do justify their existence.

As a discounter you do.

The prominent discount brokerage in my area outspends every other brokerage combined on advertising. They couldn't even break 5% market share during an over heated seller's market.

Ultimately... every discounter's greatest fear is another discounter. Unique selling propositions and customer service aren't a big part of a high volume model. Anyone can do it cheaper and if they have a bigger ad budget, you're dead as a discounter.

However, traditional brokerages who encourage individual agents to build strong niches in the neighborhoods they serve consistently handle many, many more transactions than a discount driven, brand centric marketing model.

While the internet is good, people sell houses, people hold transactions together, people help buyers and sellers through the biggest transaction of their life (so far.)

Those people happen to be Realtors, and if you don't get that you're in the wrong business.

After all... if you were so busy with all that discount model volume, you wouldn't have time to tell we we're all going out of business.

As the hip kids on the hockey chat boards say... PWND!

Are you still in automotive finance today? Why not? My observation of the auto business is they've gone from full commissions to salary plus comm., now it's pretty much just salary or draw. Profit per car might be higher for the dealership, not so for the salespeople. People will always need human interaction to buy a house. People will still buy houses but that doesn't mean agents will play the same role of today. The internet isn't going to replace human beings but it's going to change how human beings shop and make decisions. It's also not never going to become a for sale by owner world because nobody wants to surf a hundred fsbo sites for a house. I bought my last airline tickets online. My last rental car was done online. So was my banking statements, billpay, computer, digital camera. The web isn't going to replace agents it's just going to change how agents do things. That's going to replace a lot of commission agents that bank on making a living selling a few houses a year.

Have to agree with this statement. The brand with the biggest ad budget can sell even the worst real estate brokerage to the public. We realtors will always be in business just not most of us.

Nope. I have a couple of friends who are still on the finance side. Still commission only. A finance director friend of mine makes @200k/yr.

Furthermore, the auto industry has used technology to look at ways to increase revenue (those greedy bastards).

For instance, when I started as an F&I manager in a dealership, we barely had faxable credit apps. The wait time on someone who was A+ was 20-30 mins. Depending on the Gen. Mgr. or dealer, sometimes you had to wait until you had a hard copy approval before you contracted the buyer.
Now, deals are pretty much approved instantaneously if the buyer is anywhere from A+ to C. The decreased wait time allows the F&I mgr to make more money because buyers tend to buy more product when they don't have to wait as long.

Similar in RE. We use our technology to make us better, not to eliminate ourselves. If we were that expendable, I would be afraid that the machines were actually in control and we lived in the Matrix.

Sarcasm Noted...

After all everyone employs technology in order to give away competitve advantage and profit margins.

In some cases the internet does not help because it sets up unrealistic expectations. The pictures in many cases are better than the house really is or in some cases worse.The buyers think they are going to see a wonderful house and then when they see it they are disappointed, but since they saw it on the TV and the net, they assume they can get that marble kitchen and baths at houseboat prices. So insist if you will but we will not be replaced.
Oh and by the way I used to own a bridal shop and experienced the brides who came in pleading with me to upgrade the gown they purchsed on the net, thinking they had a real bargain, only to find a piece of garbage. After the first few I refused to work on any of them because the quality was so poor they would fall apart during the alterations. Even the local David's is out of business and the small shops are thriving again.


Service does count.

One customer will not view houses until they review the pics, even though I know they will not really be happy with the ones they pick like that. Nothing can replace seeing a house in person.

Jason,
If I have to explain to you how an agent negotiates for his client then you may be in the wrong business.

You failed to respond on how long you have been in real estate and what you did before deciding to try real estate?

BTW your wesite needs some more details. When clicking the about me section the information is all about the company even in the personal section.

I love how when I click on listing details nothing happens.

The scrolling heads of the owners is kind of creepy too.

Anyway, if a website is going to take over the real estate world... that ain't it.

Jason, you have some very interesting ideas. I don't think NAR cares about most or any of them, so I would not be worried about applying them. However, why don't you implement them on your own and see if they work?
You might find out what works and what will not, and be able to use the ones that do work in your day to day RE activity and be very successful.
Keep us posted which tasks are making enough money and are worthwhile to continue and which ones don't.
The only concern in your statement about using Attorneys vs. Realtors I have is, that there are not enough attorneys to handle the workload (besides for so little money).

Paul,
You have 17+ years WAAAAYYYY more than me and I was not attacking any of you, just stating somethings I see. Of course my point seems to have been missed.
As long as the NAR holds the Lobby on the Beltway Realtors really have nothing to worry about.
Everyone seems to answer the negotiation question the same way also, "if you don't know then this is not the business for you." I wonder why no one can answer that simple question seeing as how that is supposedly the main thing the Realtor is supposed to do?
You can also check out the website as much as you wish and feel free to attack as you did, so much for a moderator. I was only trying to have a discussion on how this industry seems to lack any real innovation and how the Realtor position seems to be being squeezed out more and more.
NAR blames everyone but themselves, I wonder why? To go to so much trouble to stop banks in real estate, but if this industry isn't going to change why would the NAR be so intimidated by a little more competition. Competition is GOOD for the free market.
Now, why do I have a license? Because when I sell my house I'm not paying that commission out. I'm by far more into technology and I would love to see a system like the one I discussed be able to come to light. Not because Realtors are bad but just because it would streamline it and make it easier. Besides Realtors are a dime a dozen these days, everybody has one they know who is either a friend, brother, sister, cousin ETC... Maybe that will change as the interest rates rise, maybe not.
I see a place for buyers agents but I see sellers agents dropping off.
I simply wanted to find out what we as "Realtors" had to offer besides "let me guide this transaction" something that could be undoubtably and most easily automated if there was no NAR. Simple as that.
And by the way, are we as Realtors supposed to have patience and the abillity to communicate as adults? The personal attack by a few of you was very childish and immature and I can assure you it was very un-business like.
This is a forum for discussing RE and new ideas and things like that. I flamed no one yet I get flamed for a discussion. Please debate as an adult in the future. If you have nothing nice to say, then don't sayt anything at all.
Happy selling.

Jason,
Give me a break!! I did not take anything you posted as an attack on me. Why should I see it that way or better yet why would I care?

I did not attack you. I simply asked you a question and if you consider that an attack then you should come back to reality because it was not meant as an attack.

As far as your website I was simply pointing out that there is a decided lack of information on the site and there is only company stuff in the personal section about you. This was simply an observation and again not a personal attack. For someone that is so "Tech" I was just surprised by its decided lack of Tech WoW!

If you really cannot see the problem with banks in real estate then you truly have no idea what this would mean for the consumer. There is plenty of competition in our current market and bringing banks into the mix would most definately not generate competition instead it would have the opposite effect.

"The Realtor position being squeezed out." I must have missed something on where you are coming from on that one.

You are right about one thing that agents are a dime a dozen. And a great majority of them are in this business as a hobby, to sell their homes, nothing else to do while their spouses are at work, in it to be able to shelter more income against passive income losses and the list goes on! There is a big difference between those and a Professional Realtor most non-professional Realtors will not make it past the 1 or 2 year mark and the single largest reason that so many agents fail is they do not approach this like they are starting their own business but that is exactly what they are doing. By your own statement you said the main reason you have a license is to save on commission. You obviously do not think realtors earn the commission so what does that say about what value you bring to the table. If you do not believe in the product it will be very hard to sell it!

Agents without the skills and a good business plan will not survive higher interest rates and slower markets. Too many look at real estate as being easy money but find differently in those first two years.

What would you know about what is business like? This forum is for debating issues that effect our industry and general situations we encounter and to also learn things. Seems as though everyone that has responded to you has been very adult but just disagree with your approach. You pop on here fresh with your license so you can save some commission when you sell your home and then get your feelings hurt when everyone does not share the same low opinion of our profession. Jason it is time for you to grow up.

You have still failed to answer my question???

If you only want to hear the nice things then you have got a lot to learn about this business.

Robert, You bring up some interesting stats here. These are things I have 'suspected' but haven't got supporting data. Do you have a 'study' with these findings? I am currently writing an article on the topic of Discount Brokers and would appreciate any 'hard data' you (or others) may have. Thanks much.

Jason,

My agents set themselves apart as being knowledgeable & able to save customers money, knowing trends, hot areas, real estate investing etc. These are the invaluable skills that you should be bringing to the table. Buyers & Sellers see value in this & will continue to be loyal & faithful to the agent that exhibits this expertise.

Who is going to let the seller know that their property may be eligible for a 1031 exchange? The overburdened attorney who is handling negotiations, reviewing contracts etc? I don't know a single atty in this area that would want an agent's job. They typically have the utmost respect for us. You think the atty wants to hear a buyer & seller fight over crappy drapes for an hour? He may but they are being billed @250/hr. I don't see that happening.

A real estate transaction is a very emotional period. Agents are more therapists than anything during this time. I have been at closings where the police have been present. Who handles those situations?

I have seen buyers & sellers get themselves into more trouble by dealing directly with each other. They get diarrhea of the mouth & let the other party know personal stuff that can be used against them when negotiating. THERE IT IS : NEGOTIATE. Agents are part private investigator to uncover buyer/seller motives so to assist the other party in their neogitations.

Who is going to review the HUD for errors? I have seen many closing atty's screw it up. And DO NOT even tell me the mtg person because are they going to notice the fact that the $1200 carpet allowance was missing or the Home Warranty doesn't have the pool coverage?

Everytime I meet a buyer/seller who went it alone, they've never had a home inspection. Yet, I bet home inspections are routine for the agents in this forum. So who tells the buyer (or seller for that matter) that the black spot on the wall could be mold & he should have it inpected?

The seller converted his garage to a den w/ AC. Did he have a permit? In FL, he would've needed one but most don't know that.

Sure, you could put a list of a things a seller needs to disclose, look for etc on a state by state basis but sellers aren't going to bother to read through the hundreds of items that they need to comply with to save them from a lawsuit down the road. They want to sell their house. The rest is the agents job.

Unrepresented sellers dealing with a buyer who has a buyer's agent is DANGEROUS. If the buyers were my customer, I would fish & pry for as much info from the seller that I could use against them & the seller would willingly give it to me. As a buyer's agent my loyalty is to my buyer.

Does the seller know that they can purchase Home Warranty coverage for their home for a very low fee that will most likely cover any repairs as a result of a home inspection (although left on their own we know that most don't have a home inspection anyway)

In FL, does a seller know an insurance co. that will give the buyer insurance during hurricane season when all the major carriers aren't writing new policies? If buyer can't get ins then no financing. Does a seller know how to write the contract so that the buyer can't back out because they can't get acceptable insurance?

I could go on & on but I think I've addressed your point that it's more than "customer service"

It is also a little scary that you believe banks in real estate is healthy & offers more competition. It has absolutely nothing to do with competition. Why do you think financial institutions are pushing to get into real estate? If you can't see the inherent danger in that for the comsumer then you must not be a good source of info & value for your customers (see previous post).

Walmart wants to start a bank. I can see it now: have film developed , get a mortgage & buy a house, we'll pay closing costs if you apply for a Walmart credit card, all while you shop..There's no problem there.

Jason, banks & real estate. Just think Silverado and the link below. I don't think we want history to repeat itself so soon.
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stories/1998/12/07/newscolumn1.html

Jason if you like the discount model and don't see the value in commission why don't you just be a discounter then if that's your believe.

I respect your points,have read them,but don't agree at all with them.

You have a paradigm which is your mindset(the way you think)we all do.We are all different people and have different believes and the way we do things based on life's experiences growing up,we all look at life through a different filter.

If your model was correct then discounters would be holding a major market share and full service would be obsolete.You make it sound like selling a house is like signing over a title on a car,there is no comparison.

Your right there are alot of people out there calling themselves agents but merely hold a liscense.People that i usually meet up with ask me alot questions to qualify me in the beginning.
They can tell from your answers if you are knowledgable or full of crap.

What matters in this world is percieved reality from a customer.Example:I used to be in the pizza business and owned a restaurant.One special was 2-large 3 topping for 16.99 it was selling ok.

Then i ran 2 large unlimited topping anything you want pizzas for 19.99.Even though it was 3 dollars more and over 90 percent of the people didn't get more than 3 toppings on there pizzas with the special,the phone rang off the hook.It was the perception by the customer that they could get whatever they want that made it appealing.

Yes nar is a money making machine but at the same time do lobby for interests of realtors and the general public.I won't get into the banking thing,if you read realtor magazine or the website there are numerous articles on why this would be a bad thing for the public.

welcome to the board

It is good to see that Realtors feel so strongly about our livelihood, whether they agree or not.

One thing we can all agree on is that clients are different. Some clients love sitting in front of the computer, doing their own searching, and being in control of finding or selling a property. Some, on the other hand, would be more apt to call their Realtor and say, "I don't know what I would have done without you", or "I just didn't know where to start", or "I don't have any time to mess with this." It is the size of these two groups which we need to be aware of, as well as how our own personal career goals fit with both or either groups. Over the years, as clients become more computer savy and more dependent on the computer in their personal lives, agents may lose a little of their strength. But, good Realtors will just circle the wagons and become even more client-friendly. So, it's a juggling act. Let's just be sure the client is served in all this.

Honestly, I don't think anybody really knows where real estate is heading for sure. We only know what ACTUALLY has happened and what we BELIEVE will happen. My best guess is that the smart Realtors will be diversified, working with buyers, sellers, investors, loss mit cases, foreclosures, the entire time keeping an eye on the discounter/cyberspace/DIY movements. My opinion is that most agents won't put their eggs in one basket, but...what do I know.

The one thing we can count on in real estate that will NEVER change is that THINGS CHANGE!

I can't see banks being in real estate or the need for agents dropping signficantly. We get bad enough service from some of the large banks or busy lawyers that the real estate transaction would fall apart and consumers would be hurt. There are certain large banks that have a horrible experience.

1. Recently, I worked with ING internet bank. My buyer chose them because they paid for all closings costs. They wouldn't talk to me at all, so I had to call with my client on the line, which was very inconvenient. When we called, we talked to "customer service", who was often just some teenager who could care less and was not empowered to call us back or do much on our behalf. We had to call in for updates since customer service could not make outgoing calls. We'd hold on the line for 20-30 minutes each time, even if it was for a simple issue.

2. Banks will probably bundle mortgage, title, etc. the way builders do, but because they are not REALTORS® or even licensed, they would not have to follow the same ethical guidelines or laws that we do. I've seen the fine print in builder contracts and can see banks and direct seller-to-buyer transactions having the same fine print. In the unrepresented transactions, I would expect an increase of lawsuits coming from lack of disclosure or one party taking advantage of the less-educated party.

3. There are many agents who are not worth their salt, but the good ones, like Paul, negotiate and bring his knowledge to the table so the clients can be protected. Lawyers won't make enough or will need to charge per hour, which many people cannot afford. As agents, we aren't paid in full until the transaction is paid in full. I don't know many lawyers who like those odds.

He never asked for your opinion on his website. Jason only raised a question on business models.
Seems the biggest seperation between discounters and full service is perception. Two people fly the same plane one takes first class, the second coach. Both arrive at the same time, same flight, but one paid A LOT more.

They'll always be poeople flying first class ( full service ) but pleeeze stop this more dollars for better service stuff. It's a laugh.

My pt exactly but buyers and sellers are getting better at understanding reality from
perception.

Is this what a full service REALTOR has
become? Illusion ( perception ) specialist?

Hey look on the bright side the number of fsbos has actually dropped from 14% to 12% lets hope it stays that way.

And I did not ask for your opinion so what is your point!

He talked the High Tech does it better and using more automation and his website is definately not that! When he can not even take the time to put his own personal information in the About Me Personal Info section.

If you are gonna talk the high tech automation route you should at least walk the walk.


In too many cases the difference between discount and full service is considerly more than perception! It is Reality!

All you need to engage in the discount debate is the following.

Best hard data:

Univeristy of Texas Real Estate Study
http://recenter.tamu.edu/tgrande/vol13-1/1765.html

I know quite a bit about the discounter in our market and their market share from our association. I also have a back ground in advertising and can see the massive volume of ad dollars they have poured into the market.

The analysis is largely based on the principles found in the 23 immutable laws of marketing by Al Ries and Jack Trout.

The fundamentals are the following:

Successful Real Estate agents, who help conduct most of the real estate transaction in the country, are niche marketers in their local communities. Successful niche marketers have a built in competitive advantage over just those who just do it cheaper.

Think about it this way... while Wal Mart is a successful company... so is Starbucks.

Another... I'm willing to bet that the most successful restaurants in any local community do not follow a Wal Mart business model.

Big traditional media companies love discounters because they tend to outspend the niche market agents by a mile. Big media is also in a death spiral of layoffs and lower profits from competition from the internet and other new media.

The key difference... Real Estate is one of the most competitive businesses out there. Because of the niche market, agent driven reality of the business it's difficult to control and consolidate the market from any perspective.

This is all about the MLS. If consumers were given access to the MLS to place properties and view sales data then it would be a whole different ballgame. That's what's it working toward. Information control is key and the NAR knows it.... and so do thier opponents.

This isn't Bolivia and the MLS is not an asset that can be seized as a public utility.

Think about it, our current MLSs are littered with a certain percentage of inaccurate information despite rules and penalties for inaccuracies. However, the fact that a home is on the market is usually accurate.

Now go to owners.com, pick 36 homes at random, and find out how many have already sold.

With that being said... there are a number of limited service agencies in our market that are happy to put your home in the MLS for a flat fee.

Approx. 75% of these listings Expire or are Withdrawn.

I don't see a consumer clamor for that type of performance.

Is it a viable business model for some... sure.

200 Clients (150 of whom wont sell their home)
x $395 = $69,000

However... the MLS only model is very vulnerable.

75% of the seller's (or non-sellers) are pissed off, not very good for repeat and referral business.

Price Pressure... noting to prevent another brokerage from doing the same thing for $295, or $99/mo.

The type of buyer that this type of model atracts is going to be a bargain hunter who will shop around for the biggest rebate.

So at the end of the day... higher advertising costs... lower consumer satisfaction... less revenue.

How does this business model work again?

"This isn't Bolivia and the MLS is not an asset that can be seized as a public utility."

You would think so... but this is exactly what they want to do.

We don't know what the result would be if consumers had access to all the information available to brokers in the MLS. I suspect the reason there is such a high rate of failure for properties placed in by "entry-only" companies is the lack of doing a proper CMA.

Let's extrapolate that: If a property is priced right and put in by a consumer vs a broker... and there is the same compensation offered to a buyers agent... what would the result be? My opinion is more of those "entered in by consumer" properties would sell. And the property owner has a vested interest in seeing the transaction through so they will put some effort into the sale whereas these entry-only companies and fsbo sites are in it for a quick-buck.

Now if it gets to that point... where the consumer can enter in their own property... then the listing agency is going to have to prove thier worth.

As equity erodes there will be more demand for this type of thing... but one size does not fit all and some consumers will want full service... and each market is different.

Do I like this prospect? No. Do I think it's going to happen? Eventually.

I responded that the system if automated would be high tech. Never did I say that the web site that I can maintain if I choose to do so is cutting edge and high tech but as you will remember while I like the real estate industry I'm more into other things that are in the "high tech" field.
This was simply to be a discussion on model options and clearly stating the exact function of the Realtor.
I believe that Realtors won't die out or anything but I do believe that the functions will drastically change.
In 20 years it has changed. You used to be able to "SELL" property but with laws as they are Realtors don't really sell a property anymore unless it is for a new homes builder.
I would say that Agency will shift to mainly a buyers agency and that the selling side would be the first to automate if innovation was encouraged.
There will always be those that say "that will never happen" but in reality a lot has happened in 20 years and yes it will not happen overnight and maybe not even in the next 10-20 years but most likely it will happen.
Those that say "that the internet and technology are just tools to increase your service, period", are seem to be very naive as to how technology has changed this country and various industries over the past 100 years. Industries change and jobs change importance, that's not to say it will be sudden and you won't have a good life long career but this industry will evolve and change.
And on another note, the hardest part of the transaction is finding the clients. Now to a starving agent who needs money and is going through hoops to get his/her name out there getting the client is everything. When that commision comes in the agent would definently feel that that commission was earned but look at it from another angle.
The laws of supply and demand run amok. The majority of agents pack it in because they can't get the clients but maybe that's because there are way damn too many agents. The exam is very easy and just about anybody can pass it. I seriously don't know of anybody who does not know of an agent through a friend or family member or co-worker on a first name basis. Maybe a 2 year degree should be required or some sort of economics or investment course, something needs to be done because alot of these people are in the dark when it comes to knowing anything about finances or market trends or anything. I for one would rather not trust my biggest purchase with someone who doesn't know jack about economics or our finacial system.
The designations are somewhat laughable. You take a course on how to better your customer service or get buyers or sellers and you get a designation which really means less than zero to the home buyer or seller.
The NAR wants to get the word out on the differences between a Realtor and a agent but you know what, most agents are Realtors these days because they have to be because there Broker is with a board, so in actuality it does not mean that much especially if you have to join and take a 3 hour ethics class, doesn't really mean that much to the consumer. Especially when "Realtors" are already reguarded as below lawyers. The NAR has been villified by the public and if the public already does not trust the NAR do you expect them to trust a Realtor?
There may always be the need for that personal touch in the transaction but I bet that in the future it will only be on the buyers side as the sellers side will become more and more automated.

A little side note, the Key and lockbox company is definently a huge ripoff and a major monopoly. And in the latest Realtor magazine they go on about how the copyright went through and they will be able to maintain control and "keep prices down". Yeah, right. They need to share that technology so other companies can come in and then we can have some competition and the prices will then and only then go down. Such a ripoff.

i'll start by saying that i'm not a realtor. from a consumer perspective, i have a few points.

1) when i bought my first house, i found an agent by walking into a realtor office in the neighborhood where i wanted to buy a house. i didn't know anyone in the area so she helped by screening out the listings (telling me what streets are better than others, etc.).

i think she helped a lot and having a realtor help me out in this process was very valuable. it also helps that as a buyer, i wasn't directly paying her fees.

2) after living in the neighborhood for 6 years, i realized that my realtor was pretty good but she failed to mention that my street was in a direction that is not so good and that it was facing a less desirable direction, etc. but that's fine...not everyone can know everything.

3) when it came time to sell, i did what all of you probably hate...i negotiated the commission. my old agent moved so she referred me to someone else in her old office. my new agent was going to sell my house for $600k and be my agent when i buy my new house for over $1M. in addition, from my talks with her (she has over 20 years of experience in the area), i knew just as much as she did about the neighborhoods, school districts and API ratings of each school, etc. i knew more about the legal aspects from my experience working at banks writing software for mortgage loan processing. she wasn't too happy at first but she took the reduced rate (4.5% total on selling (3% to buyer, 1.5% for her).

in my area (southern california), i interviewed a bunch of agents when selling my home and every single one of them was willing to negotiate commissions. 6% in that market when homes were listed for an average of 2 weeks and most people getting multiple offers was simply not necessary for the market.

the bottom line? the market will generally determine rates. i do think changes will come in commissions and the way business is done. the internet completely changed the way i bought my last house in that i was the one doing a lot of the searches and telling my agent which homes i wanted to look at. she was busy so sometimes she wouldn't see a brand new listing until 1-2 days after...i was seeing the listing within 24 hours of it showing up and i was at the house with her the next day, etc. that's not because she's a bad agent...it's because she has other clients and not all of her clients are looking for the same type of home.

RVD.

As Real Estate prices increase and the number of agents fluctuate up and down of course there will be competition among agents and negotiation regarding commission.

As a consumer of Real Estate services with an above average education due to your banking background, you chose an experienced, traditional agent who was willing to negotiate commission with you.

However, I am willing to bet as a home seller you didn't choose the lowest commission and lowest level of service available in your marketplace.

Bill Gates is high tech.

He failed at Real Estate too.

All of your business models are fundamentally flawed.

Why is the Real Estate business going to fund the ongoing operations of the MLS if the MLS will be used to put them out of business? The no-service model is based on a perfect, agent free, competition free MLS. If the MLS is taken from NAR, individual brokerages will protect their business interests and build their own MLS systems. The DOJ will be dead meat with a "anti-trust" suit that demands that brokerages in a state regulated business share information with their competition.

Why should Supra invest in Lockbox technology in order to have other companies steal thier investment away? Why innovate if your intellectual property can be stolen at will.

News Flash: socialism and communism don't work. When you take away the profit motive... people stop creating and innovating.

Instead of complaining how NAR and Supra have made your life unfair by creating solid MLS & Keybox systems and wishing for the day the state takes them away maybe you should find a business (or economic system) that you are better suited for.

Why are you betting against the marketplace?

This person DIDN'T choose the lowest commission ( or maybe he did? ) but he did say the agent wasn't too happy at first but she took the reduced rate (4.5% total on selling (3% to buyer, 1.5% for her).

There's a lot of smart people out there. The internet is asking why pay first class when you can get there at the same time, same flight, for much less? What you people are telling the public is that somehow the same flight with lower airfare offers a lower quality flight. If the mls is your flight to marketing watch out!

I'm willing to bet that most of your houses sold through the mls. If that's the case, you better watch out!

You have no idea what a monopoly is do you?

Supra is, in a word a monopoly. If another key lock system was available the prices would go down, but then Supra has dug in like a tick and has convinced the industry to kill any competition that tries to enter a market.

Kind of like Microsoft was. Why do you think they had to relinquish some secrets to let the Linux brand (Star Office) work with Word?

This is basic ecomnomics people.
Monoplies stifle innovation.

Jason,
You don't know what you are talking about in regards to GE/SUPRA. If SUPRA is a monopoly it is only because another company has not bothered to developed their own system. Any company is free to do so and then market it to the local Realtor associations as they are the end consumers. If another company would market a similiar keybox system and sell for less then I bet most associations would have no problem switching but no company has bothered to do so.

You sound like a frustrated Linux user who can find nothing better to do than complain about the big bad Microsoft that keeps the open coders down.

Ever hear of Ticketmaster?

After years of 'they' complaining about high fees being tacked on to concert tickets, Ticketmaster still does just fine... why?

Some concepts work better with a single vendor. When your dealing with concert tickets or key access a single techology is a better way to go.

As a Realtor do you want two sets of Electronic Lock Box keys, maybe three in order to get into each companies proprietary lockbox system?

You'll get competititon, but a lot of high cost chaos in the process.

In addition, there is another key box company out there called ShureLock so no you don't have to use a Supra Box.

Supra is not a monopoly... and R. Wilson is right... if they open up the MLS then brokers will pull in thier horns to protect themselves and essentially bring us back to the good old days. This will spell the end to IDX.

Bottomline is that sellers want their property sold and buyers want to buy property under the best terms. Whoever can satisfy that will succeed and those that don't will be history.

Your wrong both counts.

another lockbox company tried to come into this area and they were cheaper and they never took off. Why? Because Then every one would have to re-buy a key and lockbox. If it was shared technology then you have 2 companies to go to and competition.

I like Microsoft, but because of Linux it keeps them on their toes. Whats that called? Oh, yeah, innovation.

Take the upcoming HD-DVD and Blu-Ray war.
2 camps, 2 hardwares and yet there will be a winner just like the batamax/vcr war. And when there is a winner guess what? The copmpanies that lost will manufacture the winners hardware and the prices will come down even fruther because of more competition.

GO HD-DVD by the way, Blu-ray is overpriced and a gimmick and the only reason it is being pushed is because it contains even more copy protections to screw over the consumers.

i didn't go with the lowest priced broker (catalist in my area) who has 3% total commissions. i mainly didn't go with them because i didn't know about them at the time.

if i were to sell my house now, i'm not sure what i would do. i might go with a discount broker simply because 1.5% of a $1.2M house is the same as 3% of a $600k house and the amount of work to do isn't that much more (if any). this area is the kind where you have $600k houses right next to $1M houses, etc.

Your right ticketmaster is a huge monopoly, thank goodness more places have opened up their box offices to get tickets direct now. How can they do that? Oh yeah, Technology an automation, well I'll be a monkeys uncle, it works.

The discounters aren't WalMart and they sure aren't Southwest either.

WalMart has the greatest product distrubution system in the world, Southwest is the most effiecient airline in the world.

Limited/Lo Service Companies in the Real Estate business want to give away what isn't theirs, the MLS, and then complain when their results aren't great for consumers (hint: everything isn't the MLS)

If Southwest failed to get people to their desination with their bags intact 75% of the time they wouldn't be profitable and they would likely be out of business.

Most people in love with the discount models look at 80% of the agents who have no business plan and nothing unique regarding how they market themselves or property and think they are going to get rich by doing nothing for less.

The rest of the story is that it's the other 20% of the agents who do most of the business.

Can a handful of well prepared agents/brokers prosper follwing a discount model? Absolutely.

Will they somehow dominate a marketplace? Probably Not.

Why? Competition.

I kinda agree with Jason on Supra. In my area, it is a broker imposed monopoly and we minions have no choice. They chose to have a single lockbox system and chose Supra. I'm not sure if there's any alternative, but barring none, well, that's a monopoly. On the other hand, switching to a new system or having multiple lockbox systems simultaneously would wreck havoc.

I assume GE/Supra is proprietary. As a capitalist, I wouldn't share either.

No the other lockbox company isn't prepared to structure their pricing in a fashion that appeals to consumers.

The blue print is simple...

When GE/Supra changed over to the new lockboxes they exchanged old for new. The keys aren't sold... they are rented or software based and the cost of the actual hardware is negligible to the user.

If the other company wanted the business, they could have adjested their monthly rental fees on the key side up and offered a key box exchange for Supra Boxes.

It looks like they didn't want the business badly enough.

How exactly are they giving away the MLS? And, why isn't theirs? Are they not paying members?

Competition is how these models will prosper, not keep them down. I lost two listings to discounters, to them, profit outweighed service. But, I agree, they're unlikely to become dominant players.

P.S. I work for a full-service, we don't discount broker.

So, speaking of the future of real estate sales...

Changes to the industry will come, albeit slowly, especially on the technological front. Last month, Paul Allen's Vulcan Capital lead an $8 million investment in Redfin. Redfin, an online company, offers flat-fee listing and rebates 2/3's of the selling commission to buyers.

This week Paul Allen's Vulcan Real Estate chose a pro-NAR, staunch full-service, full-commission, brick-and-mortar company to sell it's four new downtown condo projects. They by-passed their own in-house sales staff and Redfin which they thought so highly of. Neither their in-house staff nor Redfin has the sales & marketing experience that the old-fashion company has. It's fair to say there's still value in the old model.

I can't help but think that Vulcan's investments is like SI's cover jinx...that would be bad news for Redfin. By the way, the company Vulcan chose has been investing millions upgrading it's website and offering online tools similar to zillow, redfin and zip.

what's the website?

Redfin is a flash in the pan...

I'm tending to agree with you on this one. I'm having doubts that their buyer's model will actually work, eventhough it sounds so tempting.

The website is www . johnlscott . com

I wrote about the features and have screenshots in one of my blogs .
My write-up may sound a bit overly enthusiastic ... it's the company I'm affiliated with.

Monopoly in Lockboxes? Did you forget Home Depot and their cheap Supra combo's? Who says you can't use those? (It's ok for E&O)

They didn't start out that way.

Do people flying coach arrive later than first class? Do first class arrive in a better quality airplane?

I'm not sure who's worse, the guy doing nothing for less or doing nothing for more.

Business as usual regardless of business models.

TRUE but we're not talking about discount models here are we? The original post seems to be about the use of technology to lower cost.

More competition for redfin.
http://www.buysiderealty.com,

http://www.rebatereps.com.

Interesting thing here is buysiderealty.com was started by the same guy that later sold to etrade. ttp://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/9886.html

Not everybody entering the dot com real estate world is doomed for failure. Most of what you call full service companies will fail same as most discounters will fail.

IT'S BUSINESS AS USUAL. For every discounter that you "think" does worse than you there are 100 agents doing less than the discounter.

IT'S BUSINESS AS USUAL.

Jason, Supra doesn't have a monopoly on lockboxes in Atlanta. Have you ever looked at a foreclosure? Most of them have the Home Depot style lockboxes that you can buy for 29.99. The agents put the code in the private remarks in the FMLS and MLS.

I find a lot of what you are writing to be an example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. I understand that some of what you think seems to be true on the surface. Actually I was probably in the business for ten years before I realized that its really better for the Seller who is not in the business to hire a professional. Why?
1)because a lot of things can and do go wrong and the solutions are not always obvious.
2)Because frequently the Buyer can read the Seller (and vice versa) and knows when he is anxious to sell (or buy). Negotiation is difficult and it's only by keeping the buyer and seller apart that it is possible to drive a better deal that often nets the seller more money!
3)Because when a person buys a FSBO they are expecting a lower price and the Seller is expecting to net more money. That's a rock and a hard place.
4) Because when something goes wrong in the transaction frequently either the Seller's or the Buyer's emotions take over and it becomes impossible to settle amicably. Again by keeping a level headed intermediary it is possible to settle some angry issues.

Yeah, a smart well adjusted person theoretically can sell on their own and have an effortless transaction, but it is not the norm.

That is why I think Realtors are here to stay. The average person cannot have a smooth successful transaction on their own.

Also the realtors who last are the ones who take the ethics code seriously and treat the clients like they would like to be treated. They are maybe 10% of the agents out there but they do 90% of the business anyway.

Your analogy... meet my facts.

The limited service brokers in my county fail to complete the transaction 75% of the time.

The prominent 'full service' discounter fails to sell their listings at twice market average despite completing sales at 16% below market average.

BTW... this company has spent more on advertising in a single metro market in the last 6 years than Paul Allen will ever dump into Redfin.

The University of Texas study that I linked to earlier in the thread shows that there is little or no net gain for a home seller using a limited service broker.

As prices continue to appreciate in certain markets there will be downward pressure on commission rates, but net commissions have actually grown over the last several years in apprciating markets.

Another factor in lower commissions.... 1.2 Million Realtors in 2005.

As the number of practicing Realtors drops... it comes down to supply and demand. Commission rates will likely stabalize and agents that deliver great service will prosper.

Starbucks>Wal-Mart as a Real Estate Model.

I have more faith in the study than anyone's opinion on this topic because the study was on 55,000 transactions. So thanks for bringing this up. The study uses 4% charged for limited service as examples to show the 1.7% difference.

Strangely, at 4% the consumers would have a net gain of .3%. At 3% the net gain would be 1.3%. At 2% it's 2.3%.

THERE'S NO NET GAIN AT 4% but there is a net gain at a lower rate.

Seems simple enough either improve service quality at 4% or lower the rate more to make up the loss.

Yeah, well Linux was around when Microsoft was around before some technology was being shared and it was still a Monopoly.
Supra is a monopoly.

I still fail to see how you consider keeping the buyer and seller apart as negotiation.

Negotiation is the process whereby interested parties resolve disputes, agree upon courses of action, bargain for individual or collective advantage, and/or attempt to craft outcomes which serve their mutual interests. It is usually regarded as a form of alternative dispute resolution. The first step in negotiation is to determine whether the situation is in fact a negotiation. The essential qualities of negotiation are: the existence of two parties who share an important objective but have some significant difference(s). The purpose of the negotiating conference to seek to compromise the difference(s). The outcome of the negotiating conference may be a compromise satisfactory to both sides, a standoff (failure to reach a satisfactory compromise) or a standoff with an agreement to try again at a later time. Negotiation differs from "influencing" and "group decision making."

The only negotiation happening is between you and your client. Once the price is set another party can make a counter offer through their agent and then it is presented to the seller (if you are the sellers agent) and the seller will decide to take it or not. Sure you can give some advice but you negotiate nothing in this transaction, the negotiation is going down between the buyer and the seller. An agent at this point is a high priced telphone line or messanger.
When 2 opposing parties in a legal dispute go into a room the Lawyer sits with the client and the Lawyers go back and forth actually negotiating and then the client gets final decision at the end. And yet again no one can actually come up with a point where they are really negotiating. Why? Because due to the laws you really don't and are not really allowed to "sell" the house anymore. So we are back to the agent being a high priced guide through something that could be automated.

"As for MLS - if we have the net, why do we need MLS?"
What is "the net" going to do for you without the bodies who administer the MLS and keep it functioning?
Have every agent place their listings on e-bay? I know that other org's like Zillow would love to take over the MLS for "free", just think how high their marketing stock would go.

MLS is only truly good for Active properties. Closed sales - including non mls information - is available from other, better sources.
The net provides a place for agents to showcase their own listings and generate their own business, just like print ads used to.
Without MLS, sites like zillow don't have good information on active listings.

I feel there is always going to be a need for us but if you don't change with the times you will be left out. I still think more of "menu" service where you get paid by the selected service could be where things go.

This guy reminds me of a client I once I had that was recommended through a Realtor who was an a-hole. Anyways long story short I pretty much qualify this borrower and quote him a certain rate and we proceed with the process.

The borrower does a bit of research and finds out that the bank will give him the same rate without charging him an origination fee which is about 1% of the loan. I of course expect the Realtor to back me up but the a-hole doesn't really care who ends up doing the loan as long as he gets his commission even though I went out of my way to go this person home and qualify him.

One week before there suppose to close escrow the Realtors calls me pleading if there is any possible way that I can qualify his borrower since after all the bank could not help him out. Contingencies had been removed and of course I had to make it happen for him within a week so the borrower wouldn't lose his deposit.

I think it's safe to say that one time or another we've had to deal with bad big business practices where they pretty much get away empty promises.

What you don't understand is what NAR does is protect people such as yourself who believe they know better. Just imagine losing thousands of dollars and trying to make your case that a large bank is at fault which of course would have every possible clause that would leave them free of lawsuits.

We can go on and on how NAR at the end of the day really protects the public. I meet people like almost everyday who think somehow we don't really earn our commission and that somehow being a realtor is not really profession. That somehow we don't really do that much in really helping our clients. Usually it's people who've found out the hard reality that this kind of work is hard work and more challenging then your regular 9-5.

Without real estate agents, it would probably take more time to close transactions, not less time. Agents need more credit for being peace makers, which is a big part of closing a lot of these real estate transactions.

Hi Jason,

It is nice to read your post. I am a creative thinker/entrepreneur too. I took my broker office virtual back in 1999. It is called Jane's Closeout Marketplace.

Buyers and sellers worldwide meet, negotiate and e-contract for excess lots using the software I designed. I own the copyrights to the e-contract. First 2 party contract online.

Everyone told me that it wouldnt' work but guess what? They were very wrong! The ones that said my idea wouldn't work are now out of business.

I was a closeout broker. For me, I found using the telephone to relay messages back and forth between buyer and seller very time consuming.

I came up with a plan for buyers and sellers to negotiate through my website without me present.

I watch over multiple negotiations during the day in case they need my help but I can process many more orders by running my business this way.

I cut my commission to 12 percent (instead of 30 percent) Hey, it is only fair, I am spending alot less time on the phone, meeting clients in person and going to trade shows. I pass the savings on to the buyer. It encourages him to use my service.

When the buyer has received answers to his question, he can submit an offer. When the seller clicks the Accept button it becomes a {bilateral contract between 2 parties}. It is completely automated plus all negotiation is embedded in the contract - no it is a clean deal and never any problems later regarding "who said what"

I believe I could design a marketplace for the real estate industry. I believe that I could get buyers and sellers to contract for houses online. It might be pre mature for houses but people would definitely do it for timeshares.

If you or anyone else is interested please contact me directly.

I have been doing this since 1999 and have over 22,000 registered users.

My background is timeshares and licensed realtor in Nevada and California.

The Internet is ultimately going to replace the middle man broker. If you are in real estate and expecting the NAR or MLS to protect you, think again.

More About the e-Contract
http://www.janesdeals.com/aboutus.asp

I don't think most of the experienced agents on here are counting on NAR or MLS protecting them from anything.

I see you sell closeout merchandise like polo shirts, CD's, designer jeans, tennis shoes, NASCAR memorability, and wholesale American flags. You already have your backup systems in place, and they do not appear to be real estate related, so that will be good for you if real estate stops making money for you.

Certainly anyone in real estate knows from day-one how volatile it is, and most are smart enough to be innovative and industrious in their survival plans...plans which may or may not include real-estate related activities. But most of the pros who post on here are not flash-in-the-pan agents. They've been through some bad times and bounced back, so I doubt if they will be phased out, either.

Congratulations on your innovative thinking.

Darlene

Hi Darlene,
Thanks for the compliment. I don't sell the polos or jeans, I just built the technology. Users can post anything they want. Sometimes they post big screen tv's or computers. The concept works for everything. In fact Buyers and sellers are negotiating right now. All I do is transfer the money like an escrow company. It is outdated website but the basic concept still works.

My new idea is to create a One Stop Real Estate Exchange where buyers and sellers could meet, deposit their equity into a Bank and Withdraw a Home in another area using the deposited equity. The Investor/Owner would be actually buying the home and putting it back on the market but I believe people would use this type of system as an alternative to foreclosure or having 12 month DOM. The type of Internet Exchange might be a Solution. Of course all the fine points would have to be ironed out.

Okay, I read "excess lots" and though you meant real estate lots. Oops. You meant lots of goods...as in batches of goods, right?

Okay, I see what you are going for now. It might work best with a small group of investor clients who like to purchase properties in cities other than where they live. If you want to cut the agent out, try some investor clubs...where these guys meet and discuss everything about investing, flipping, finding properties. Some of these clubs meet weekly. They can give you feedback on what would work for them in this type program. Also, you might bounce your idea off some of the agents in the investor forum.

I'm sure you are aware of the many rules, regs, and the unending list of no-no's regarding real estate negotiations, contracts, disclosures, and all that stuff. You are right when you said it is a lot of details to work out. But I'm not telling anyone that something is impossible.

Good luck.

Thanks for the tip. Remember that I am a broker too trying to find new ways to be a broker online. Investors in my Real Estate Exchange could be a Group of Broker Investors willing to get together to build a unique solution to this current real estate crisis across the US. Interest rates are going to keep going up and you are looking at a 10-15 year turnaround for interest rates to settle down.

Jane, Jason, et..

A number of companies do exactly what you are talking about by streamlining and cost cutting. Look at 'em closely some are pushing 24 hour service. Why in the world would people go to a bunch of PART TIME full service agents when the newer breed are open all the time.

I mentioned refin and buysiderealty. Here's some more. http://www.forsalebyweb.com

http://www.savingstreet.com

Buysiderealty, refin and forsalebyweb are all pushing some form of 24 hour service.

Some of the new outfits have not quite perfected their "ideas" but then most agents in general either haven't caught on with the times or they're still learning too.

It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. So true.

I wonder how much money was invested to launch buyersiderealty.com.

None of these systems will work without traffic. It will take a long time to build the real estate community of buyers and sellers who will use the system. My opinion is that they should have invested in a Real Estate Search Engine First because in order for it to work the site has to be branded. Once you have a steady stream of targeted traffic from the search engines, you can feed the marketplace.

If the investors have deep pockets, they can dig in their pockets and pay for google traffic but it is only a matter of time before Google will start their own Real Estate Marketplace and direct it to their own real estate marketplace.

My opinion is it is Now perfect timing for the MLS to launch a buy/sell platform online. It would be a natural extension since they already have the online traffic and credibility. The US Post office got smart and realized the opportunity and now they are doing money transfers - (like paypal).

If MLS is not interested, a start up company handling for sale by owners would be my next choice. This would be combined with the launching of the first major search engine for real estate listings.

Jane
http://www.janesdeals.com/

For those interested in this concept. Here is a negotiation going on right now between a buyer and seller on Janesdeals. As you see, once buyers and sellers are taught how to use the system, they use it. Also since we are 24/7 I have buyers and sellers from other countries. I have sellers from Pakistan and buyers from the UK - Our server is in the USA.

Now you might think I am not smart by publishing my back end solution where others can copy it. Well I am not real worried since there is "alot more too it". I do believe that sharing ideas is healthy and I would like to build on to my econtract by expanding into virtual real estate - there is so much more that can be done to make the concept more interactive but I am a one man show!

---9/6/2006:Buyer asks seller a question
Hello,

Do you sell authentic True Religion with paperwork on an ongoing basis? Will I receive a copy of the paperwork? Do you also sell authentic Rock & Republic jeans with paperwork? Please contact me as soon as possible. I am very interested!
---9/10/2006:seller sends the buyer a note.
Hi,
Yes I only sell authentic items with papers. I have on going supply, and I do sell r&r as well. You will only receive the papers on an order of 200 units or more. But the 200 order can be filled with a mix of different designers. I pretty much have every designer jean available. For instance I have true religion, rock and republic, 575, seven for all mankind, citizens of humanity, antik denim, paige denim, etc etc. If you ar elooking for something I can most likely get it. Please get back to me asap so we can work a deal

Patrick


---9/12/2006:Buyer asks seller a question
Hello Patrick,

Yes, I am highly interested in what you have to offer. Please email me at: (edited by jane - please do not give out contact info during negotiation - read site policy!) Do you have a web site? Where are you located? Do you also sell authentic designer handbags with paperwork? Let me know.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Warmest Regards,
Melissa

---9/12/2006:seller sends the buyer a note.
Here are some of the deals I am offering right now. Min. order is 50 units. Could be mixed and matched between brands and styles.

True Religion
50 units @ $100 200 units @ $85
Women:
Joey Super T, Easy Rider, Mellow Yellow, Bobby Big T, Saddleback Joey, Stretch Flare Joey, Miss Groovy,
Men: Billy Big T,Bobby Rainbow, Bobby Denim,Joey Japanese Denim

R&R: 50@ $110/unit 200 @ $100/unit
Women:KIEDIS, JAGGER, ROTH, VICTORIA BECKHAM, WICKED
MEN: PETE, HENLEY, TAYLOR,JOHNNIE
Citizens: 50 @ $75/unit 200 @ 65/unit
WOMEN:SIMONE, KELLY,RIC RAC, SANTORINI
MEN: JAGGER, EVANS, JERBA
Seven for All Mankind: 50 @ $85/unit 200 @ $70/unit Women: A" Pocket Stretch, Flynt, Havanna, Dojo
Men: Flynt, Cross Stitch A, NAKITA





---9/12/2006:Buyer asks seller a question
Hello,

If I order 200 pairs in order for me to receive paperwork, can I mix designer brands? For instance, can I mix 7 For All Mankind and True Religion styles to make up for 200 pairs? What state are you from? Please contact me at your earliest convenience. Thank you so much!



---9/13/2006:Buyer asks seller a question
I wanted to know how long shipping will take to New Jersey? What are your forms of payment?


---9/14/2006:Buyer asks seller a question
Hello,

Do you carry Dolce & Gabbana jeans as well? Please let me know. I am interested in purchasing 50-200 pairs of your Seven For All Mankind jeans A Pocket jeans. What type of paperwork would I receive? Is the paperwork direct from the manufacturer? Please advise. What forms of payment do you accept? Please contact me at your earliest convenience.

Thank You!

---9/15/2006:seller sends the buyer a note.
Hi,
Yes you can mix up the 200 units by mixing different brands. That is not a problem. I am from PA, but these are coming directly from one of my main supplier in Illinois. Shipping will take about 5-7 days after payment has cleared to me, and a tracking number will be given to you once the items are shipped. Payment options are wire, money order, or certified check. Jane can also attest that I am a very reliable and trustworth seller, that has been selling wholesale on this site for over two years.

I do not currently have D&G jeans, but I can get them for you if you are really interested. The seven for all mankind come with release papers directly from the manufacturer along with sanitized invoice I believe. I think we should start with the 200 unit mix, or the seven order for your first time order so you can then see how everything goes. After that I can look into gettnig you the D&G you would like. I only say this because I have the seven and others in stock, and I would like to establish a business relationship with you if you are a serious buyer. Once we move on I can most likely offer more discounts to you. Please get back to me. Thanks!!

Patrick

They have traffic from all the broker sites how is that not traffic? As a broker I won't allow the mls to become a buy/sell platform. Where is the profit for me?

Google will not become a broker because that's not the brand they've created. They're a search engine. People expect to search and compare at search engines. They don't expect to be sold a service. That's why ebay succeeds but yahoo fails at auctions.

They already have major search engines for real estate. Try oodle.com and trulia.com.
The online brokers know that they have to build traffic that's why they're offering commission rebates.

Regarding your auction site isn't that what overstock.com is about?

Jane, that is very interesting. Thanks for posting it. Some would say that jeans are not a piece of land with termites, flood damage, and no seller disclosure. But a conversation is a conversation, so I do see your point.

This may have a lot more benefits for the out-of-town buyer/seller than for local. But as you said, you are still developing it. Also, I am curious about property management companies using this type setup. They might like it since they have contracts with the owner, tenants, vendors, etc.

Anyway, regarding The Other Side's post:

Jane posted what I think is a sample of how transactions take place on her site. She does not sell the overstock, she just has this web site where people can go on there and negotiate and enter into contractual obligations with each other. It does not have to be overstocked merchandise. IS THAT CORRECT, JANE???
CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.

Also, the internet is changing minute by minute, and it is going to be hard to predict what these major entities will do in the future.

I agree that part-timers can't offer services to the clients the same way full-timers can. I don't know any part-timers except my friend, who ended up leasing homes on Galveston Island for commission. Those independent buyers/sellers who would prefer the services you discuss are not the only type clients out there. As long as that continues, agents may feel a pinch as things go more to the internet, BUT they cannot be replaced by the internet.

It will probably be the client who determines which way real estate goes in the future. As the years go by and more and more services of all types are offered on the internet, almost everyone will have to have a computer. That may bring some change. I believe where the clients lead us, we will follow.

The older agents may not like the change, but as long as they are producing, why would they even care. And a lot of them have made it through some very rough times, are top producers now, and will continue to get referrals for a number of years.

Newer agents were raised with the internet and would not reject any kind of adapting, if needed.

But none of this matters if the client does not want it to. We have to give the clients what they want, just like in any other service business.

Meanwhile, good info in last post, Jane.

ttyl - it's been interesting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darlene B:
[QB] Jane, that is very interesting. Thanks for posting it. Some would say that jeans are not a piece of land with termites, flood damage, and no seller disclosure. But a conversation is a conversation, so I do see your point.

Anyway, regarding The Other Side's post:

Jane posted what I think is a sample of how transactions take place on her site. She does not sell the overstock, she just has this web site where people can go on there and negotiate and enter into contractual obligations with each other. It does not have to be overstocked merchandise. IS THAT CORRECT, JANE???
CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.

Also, the internet is changing minute by minute, and it is going to be hard to predict what these major entities will do in the future.

Hi Darlene,

Yes, this is a buy / sell platform that I have spent five years experimenting with the e-contract system - This function is a hands down winner. Because I have prior art to prove I was the first one to design this type of platform, and my registered copyrights are in my name, I can cookie cut the function to all commodities. If you want to test my system (and I hope you will so I can experiment) just register on Janesdeals and add your listing Under the category Real Estate. It will take 3 - 6 months for me to start bringing targeted buyers to your listing but I think I can find the buyers if you will post the listing.

This is a test - so please bear with me. There is no charge for the listings.

thanks Darlene!

Darlene,

One more thing I wanted to mention. My original test site was based on a closeout business. This business was my husbands business, not mine. I had always been in real estate. But I decided to create solution to his business so he could reach more people to buy his warehouse of goods. It has been very successful.

Because I created the buy/sell platform from a real estate thinker perspective (contracts and disclosures and creating urgency and econtract) you can see it is a potential hands down winner for the real estate industry.

My average sales price is 2000.00 but I have had negotiations in the 40,000 range. This tells me that this system will work in any industry. Of course it would take a major backer to do it right in the real estate area.

Instead of trying to start your own idea from scratch, I think a large company should hire me and let me design and system that would work in the Real estate Field.

Do you have any suggestions on how I can find the right people to build this marketplace? I have taken my concept to Wall Street and the Investors loved the idea and concept. But, there were problems with other parts of the company I was associated with so I broke off to do my own thing. I thing timing is right for real estate so put your heads together and let's make it happen.

Jane

Maybe you can try contacting this group again.
My understanding is buysiderealty is funded by the owner who sold a stock trading website to etrade. I think it was called Webstreet stock trading so they have millions to fund their rebate idea.

I personally think cashback rebate websites will go the wayside.

Well if forsalebyowner.com is any indication of how these sites without traffic are doing, then it's going to be a complete failure. YOU NEED TRAFFIC PERIOD. I don't think buying traffic from google or yahoo will bring enough buyers.

To be real honest with you, I have been around the block a few times. I have met with the ceo's of major .coms in New York who were buring $10,000 a month and there wasn't even a buy button anywhere on the website. These guys got funded by their bull**** or relationships - it is all air. But what I have found in my trip to the top that the only ones who can truely create a online business marketplace that works, are the brokers in the REAL WORLD. That is why I want you to stop seeing the Internet as the Enemy. This could be YOUR OPPORTUNITY of a lifetime.

I happen to have all the detailed stats from studying online behavior for years. I studied logs 24/7 worldwide and guess what? Online buyers and sellers are not the same ones that come into your office. There is a complete additonal market of buyers and sellers who will buy and sell online. IN order to design the online marketplace you have to have years experience in sales to build a plan.

IN other words. I need other sales brokers to help me put this marketplace together and also a major backer like the mls or a modern thinking real estate company. Anywone reading this board is qualified since you wouldn't be spending your time off debating this issue unless there was a problem in the way you are currently doing it and you are trying to find a solution.

I wanted to make a correction. I am very passionate about this subject and when I get going I tend to make spelling and number errors. I am only a salesperson not an financial person. But you need both to make the online business.

The .coms in NY I visited were burning 10 million dollars per month. Not 10 thousand. There was not even one buy button on the site.

My point is that profitable ecommerce businesses have to be made by you and me. Not Harvard graduates with Book Sense. I am talking about sales 101 door knocking.

I am not the one to raise investment money. I am the one behind the scenes that With you can build the first real estate marketplace in the world that will be profitable from day 1. But, it will take alot of dedicated soldiers who want to build an honest real estate solution online using the integrity and customer service that you have given over your lifetime.

Find the right backer and lets make this happen. I am not interested in a .com with no direct experience selling real estate. I want the old school of thinkers to build the virtual version.

Jane

You are correct, Jane, we are talking about two different kinds of buyers and sellers--and one set is prime for the internet.

You are correct, Jane, we are talking about two different kinds of buyers and sellers--and one set is prime for the internet.

Excuse duplicate post. I'll take care of that. Everybody, I'm going off thread here for just a couple of paragraphs. Sorry, folks.

Jane, while your real estate thing is coming together, I do know one area where your business would work very smoothly...industrial valves. If you want to call me, email me at darlenebitner@earthlink.net and I will send you my phone number. We can talk in front of our computers and I can help you find some info. Your husband can work the valve thing and you can work on the real estate thing till you get it where you want it. Most of the companies have their valve inventory on the web now, but even if there are some clearning houses for multiple businesses, probably none have the contract angle that you have. If I were still in the valve business, I guarantee you that I would give your site a try. Why not--don't have to worry about traffic to site. Word of mouth in the valve business will send everyone scurrying to Jane's Industrial Valve Marketplace. Just a thought--that might make some money to pump into the real estate thing.

Sorry, folks, did not know how to say that any other way in case Jane is interested. My apologies.

Okay, back to real estate.

[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by theotherside:
My understanding is buysiderealty is funded by the owner who sold a stock trading website to etrade. I think it was called Webstreet stock trading so they have millions to fund their rebate idea.

I personally think cashback rebate websites will go the wayside.


Yes. I Agree one hundred percent. Cashbash rebate doesn't work except to raise money on wallstreet. I remember when tradeout.com came in with all the bells and whistles - they failed since none of them were closeout people. They were all .com entrepreneurs without a business plan. They spent mega bucks on trade shows and advertising and matching tshirts for all the sales people but then they all sat in the tradeout.com booth clueless on how to network with the attendees of the trade show who came every single year.

In order to build the marketplace that works you have to be in the brick and morter business.

Ebay is a joke. It is a Total Fraud and it breeds criminals. Please don't challenge me on this one -

Darlene,

I think you are missing my point here. My site, janesdeals.com is a dinosaur. I am not planning on expanding it. The only value is the e contract function. It was a test. Years later the simple test still works - I could shut it down tomorrow and restart it next week under a new name. In a few months it would functioning again on its own like a robot.

this part of janesdeals is a success. the other part is a throw away. what i learned is the people can and will form econtracts online. I would like to take my mini test to a much larger level and hopefully with the help of other real estate creative thinkers we can build an online version of the virtual real estate broker.

that is all. I am tired = good nite!!

I'd take more stock in what you are saying if some of these new companies weren't run by people that have already done it before.

Redfin and buysiderealty are started, run, and backed by people that have built sites like expedia.com and web street brokerage. They know a thing or two about internet consumers.

Something like 70% of buyers are searchign the web for houses so we know it's massive. This isn't 70% of internet buyers but all buyers.

I'm not quite convinced that most people today have the attention span to use internet for buying, selling, negotiationg..et.. ebay is as big as they come and they barely have enough sellers using the site.

I'm currently working with a buyer that is quite familiar with the web. He and his wife searched the web for their properties. They even drove by all the properties to look. Comes time to buy they called and asked what next?

Internet banking has not replaced branch banking it has only become an added convenience. I'm not at all convinced that the internet will produce or create a successful internet real estate brokerage model. Maybe an added feature or service for branch brokers but not as a standalone model.

But that's just one man's opinion.

posted 09-16-2006 08:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd take more stock in what you are saying if some of these new companies weren't run by people that have already done it before.

Redfin and buysiderealty are started, run, and backed by people that have built sites like expedia.com and web street brokerage. They know a thing or two about internet consumers.

Internet banking has not replaced branch banking it has only become an added convenience. I'm not at all convinced that the internet will produce or create a successful internet real estate brokerage model. Maybe an added feature or service for branch brokers but not as a standalone model.

But that's just one man's opinion.


Hello " the other side "
Well I don't know what "the other side" stands for but I can tell you that the only people that can successfully design a real estate marketplace that really works are "the real estate brokers who have the most experience" I do not consider etrade or other venues the hands down Gurus. In fact, I think you are selling yourself short by accepting this company as the Guru of Real Estate Online. They might not have a Clue in the ins and outs of Real Estate.

The Internet is so new. Please contribute your part in building a online version of what you do. Don't accept a big .com's Name. They are mostly air and I have not seen any real company step forward.

I think the Real Estate Market is Prime for a Virtural Marketplace but so far the companies dabbling in it are clueless.

Why don't you get involved in online real estate and contribute to making an online virtual marketplace for brokers instead of caving in to some .com that is well funded from a poorly thought out plan.

You are the expert. But it IS TIME to Go ONLINE and to Create a Virtual / global real estate market/

I don't know how/where you get the idea that I've caved in to the .com gang. What I said was I'm not convinced that there can be a successful internet real estate brokerage.

I think it will be like internet banking where the internet will become a service/feature/convenience offered by all the brokers. But as a standalone real estate company I think it's a failed model.
That's my take.

Actually, Westchester county just started using a new lockbox system. I know little about the process except that they looked over several alternative systems..indicating that no one has a monopoly on lock boxes. The system chosen was SentriLock - which I believe has nothing to do with SUPRA which means there is no lockbox monopoly!

"Internet banking has not replaced branch banking it has only become an added convenience. I'm not at all convinced that the internet will produce or create a successful internet real estate brokerage model. Maybe an added feature or service for branch brokers but not as a standalone model."

I think it's a matter of time...

We should start thinking that that may happen...

----------------
Free Real Estate Guides

I agree with changeagent....Sometimes keeping a deal together requires way more than a 29.95 listing fee could provide. Selling homes is to personal for most folks. Mediators are needed to make the transaction go forward, not backwards. I don't know about you guys, but I think us REALTORS will be around for a little while..lol

I have been testing a Real Estate Online Marketplace that I think is a winner. It has some bugs but overall the site concept has all the functions and features for a real estate agent to network with other agents, build their own website and market it using SEO techniques.

Point2.com - I think that is the name. Here is the link:
http://homes.point2.com/ForAgents.aspx

You can test it for 14 days for free/

Jane

Jane,

There is a world of difference between an "excess lot" and a overpriced home built in 1928, with foundation issues, single-pane windows, unpermitted construction over the years, a "partly" upgraded main electrical service (by who??), a wet basement, and a seller facing a borderline short sale. Which happens to be the home I am attempting to put a buyer into right now.

Oh, and it's also a very cool home in a great neighborhood that is perfect for what my client wants to do with it.

My job is to protect my client's interests like a shark while doing everything in my power to get her the home. I am hustling my ass off on this one. And I have been looking for a home for this woman for about 6 weeks that met her specific needs.

I am a smart, motivated human being with my boots on the ground working for this person. That won't happen on a website.

-jeff

Jeff Olsen
Jaeger Real Estate
(541) 285-5492

Where I am there are 600,000 houses next to 1.2 M houses also, and I disagree that it isn't more work to sell a 1.2M house than a 600,000 house. (Especially if it's next to a house half it's price, LOL!)

You still have no idea what a monopoly is, do you?

Can someone summarize this thread? LOL.

Realtors suck and the internet will be the sole source of commerce within 5 years.

Realtors DON'T suck and use the internet as a tool.

Selling houses online is as easy as selling "excess lots" of blue jeans.

Selling houses are NOT as easy as selling "excess lots" of blue jeans.

Thats about it.

For years, "they" have been saying that the real estate agent will soon be a thing of the past. "They" say that in the near future, all real estate will be handled online and the middle-man will no longer be needed.

Fair enough. We've seen some of that already. In the olden days, we real estate agents "owned" the data on the MLS and we guarded it like a momma bear. I believe it was "illegal" or at least against the rules to give a client a copy of the sacred MLS listing book. Now, MLS data is available to anyone with an Internet connection. So, we lost control of that piece of the pie.

Online programs like Zillow.com can help a seller price his own damn house, thank you. He can do his own market research, pay $500 to be listed on the MLS and since he probably works from home anyway, he can manage his own showings. He can probably stumble through the offer and acceptance process by himself, too.

So where does this leave us, the professional real estate agents with our advanced education and vast experience?

(if you want, you can read the rest of this is on Active Rain under "The Future of Real Estate)

http://activerain.com/blogsview/23164/The-Future-of-Real

Good points Jennifer. I cannot agree with you more that the financial structure of our business must be looked at. The reason commissions are still hovering around 5.5% (at least in my market) is because there are simply too many hands in the cookie jar.

Jason,

First of all, I've been in the technology business for more than 20 years, mostly as a computer programmer and analyst for business applications.

You are making the same mistakes that newbies in the tech business make, that is to overestimate the almighty technology. Let me give you a piece of insight coming from my 20+ years in the tech business, ITS ALL ABOUT PEOPLE!!. Technology might change but people do not.

Buying or selling a home can be an emotionally draining experience for most people, having to deal with all the paperwork, offers, counteroffers, loan qualifications, buyers remorse, sellers remorse, weird characters, unrealistic expectations and more are simply to much for the average Joe to handle all by himself.

Technology won't resolve none of these people related issues that affect a RE transaction, only a full service broker can.

The internet the way you know it have been around for a little more than a decade and I still see Circuit City, Best Buy, Sears, CompUSA etc, full of people. With eCommerce and the convenience of shopping from home, why are so many people, including me, a tech savvy guy, still going to stores?

Ever heard about the paperless office, with all the digital technology that we have, scanners, computers, PDA, Cell phones, eBooks, cheap memory, why is it that the most common type of garbage found in your municipal dump yard is paper?

The technology that allow an airplane to fly all by himself, landing included, have been around for many year. You might have been in a flight where the plane was landed by a computer, but you might not know it because that plane also had a pilot and a co-pilot on board, why is that? The last time I checked, most airline pilots with over 10 years experience are making over 100K yearly.

America has the most technologically advance armed forces history has ever witness, but we lost the Vietnam war and we can't get Iraq under control.

Now, what about NAR, the problem that afflict people who want to compete with NAR, is that NAR have become a kind of de-facto standard for RE. Nothing is stopping anyone who wants to offer competing services alternative to NAR’s, except for the fact that very few people will use it, even if it better, for the same reason that most people use Windows, even when they recognize that Linux is better.

So, to recap:

Technology helps a lot and improve things but rarely substitute something.

It is very difficult to compete with something that has become a de-facto standard but the competition will always blame the law, regulations and the lobbyist.

Real Estate brokerage is face to face, people business, most people get it but some don’t.

Bill,

The computer can and Never will replace a real live relationship sale based on trust, emotion and honesty BUT - the computer program CAN DO is streamline the process for the buyer by cutting out the fat.

My personal experience is there is ALOT of FAT out there. Realtors who lie, cheat and can not be trusted and I will give you one example:

The MLS has allows certain brokers to advertise their listings as MLS without requiring them to provide all MLS Results. This is happening through UNETHICAL PAY PER CLICK ECT
- WHY ISN'T THE MLS OR DRE PUTTING RESTRICTIONS ON THIS? ONLY ADDS MORE FAT

BUILD a fair real estate community where the buyer can see ALL LISTINGS - EVEN FSBO LISTINGS. ADD A PRICE COMPARISON TOOL AND ELIMINATE THE LIES AND PUFFING - SPLIT THE REALTORS COMMISSION WITH THE ELECTRONIC BROKER -

I don't think that's realistic. It might work in an area of tract homes, but in many areas, like mine, the homes are unique and a "price comparison tool" based on ft2 and bedrooms etc simply won't be accurate. Furthermore, lies and puffing, as you call them, are simply part of the sales process. If I want to sell my car, it's all about how great my car is! And the buyer can do his or her due diligence to make sure that my price is right and choose to buy or not buy, negotiate or not, as they see fit. But you can't regulate pricing or presentation. If somebody wants to present their home as something special and try to shoot the moon on price, well then so be it. Maybe someone will agree with them and buy it! And maybe not. It's a free market.

Finally... why should I pay to belong to an MLS that also lists FSBO's? The MLS is not a public advertising forum. It's not the classifieds. It does not need to be "equal opportunity". If someone wants into the MLS, then they can list thier home with a co-operating broker! Otherwise sell it as you see fit. Brokers do not owe it to the public to open up the MLS to everybody.

-jeff

Electronic Broker, huh? Mmm, can't even open the door to house one yourself, can you? So the person opening the door is the listing agent, right? And you expect an even split? That was and still is a good one!

Tucker,

Well you have some nerve, assuming that I can't or Haven't opened one myself.... Well buster, I HAVE and I have over 30,000 members worldwide. Computer programmers still can't understand how to build long term relationships building simple push and click tools.

Old dogs like yourself do not add anything constructive to forums. You just respond to brainstorming members with negativity. You can't see how technology can easily quadruple your business in a fraction of the time?

Don't you want 10 times as many customers around the world? Don't fear change. Turn it around in your mind!


I invite Bill to contact me by PM to talk about my already successful electric marketplace (which is not real estate). I have already spent several years testing and revising it - I know what works and what doesn't. I am surprised the real estate ecommerce structure has taken so long to make this happen but after reading the posts from so many smug and ego minded real estate pros I can see why the delay.

Anyway, I am available as a consultant or partner if anyone wants to contact me. I don't know everything but I can promise you that I know as much or more than anyone in the e-commerce field.


Electronic Broker, huh? Mmm, can't even open the door to house one yourself, can you? So the person opening the door is the listing agent, right? And you expect an even split? That was and still is a good one!
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Why should you belong to an MLS period? MLS groups in other areas are advertising as MLS but only displaying houses for sale that they have listed.

Google mls and your house for sale (city, state) and you will see what I mean.

I don't know. There are people like my parents that won't touch a computer. If they come up with a way to get rid of doctors and have a machine do it using a computer chip, i'd rather take my chances with the human doctor. I think if we put too much emphasis on machines and technology, we'll all be out of jobs. What good would that do anyone. The more machines and computers do, the less we do. We are all going to be fat and stupid. I have always used technology as a tool but never as a means. I will never let a computer take over my life.

electricbroker,
What is it you do because it is obviously not Real Estate! This leads me to wonder why you are posting in a section that is for agents or brokers to post and exchange ideas.

Why should you belong to an MLS period? MLS groups in other areas are advertising as MLS but only displaying houses for sale that they have listed.

Google mls and your house for sale (city, state) and you will see what I mean. [/QB][/QUOTE]

The internet is a good tool for researching homes and neighborhoods, but ultimatly it's "boots on the ground" that make things happen. Your e-commerce may be fine for buying a new vacuum cleaner but it won't work for the things that you need to get your hands on... like getting a new puppy, a wife or husband, or a home. Or even deciding what car you want. You simply have to be a human being on the friggin' planet and physically experience some things to know what you want!!

I've been "on the internet" since 1991; I love it, use it daily, it has improved my life. But sometimes tech guys start to get waaaaaay to into this neat-o tool they've discovered! The net is a good way to share info, to say the least, and it has indeed cracked open the MLS. But that is a long, long ways from providing the kind of service that I, for example, provided a client today. I previewed 8 properties that fit her parameters, called her and told her a couple seemed good, then we met today and looked at the two that FELT GOOD TO BE IN, which was one of her main criteria! And I doubt she will offer on either one; this was me working on new year's eve for free, in hopes that we'll eventually find her a place and then she'll let me list her current property. Why? Because I do the hustle for my people and in the end it pays the bills.

So... motivated agent working hard in the community: "You can't touch that"!

-jeff

Homes that appear great on the internet sometimes are not so great in person. I can not tell you how many times we went to a BOH thinking the home was spectacular for a particular client, only to be very glad we did not embarrass ourselves by actually brining anyone there. We try to preview as much as possible.

How pathetic are WE, posting on New Year's Eve!

Happy New Year, ya'll...

-jeff

[/QB][/QUOTE]

I have held real estate licenses in several states over the last 20 years. I recently sold my home in a state that I am not licensed in. I interviewed several TOP agents to list my home and this is what I heard:

1. I don't DO Open Houses. I have better things to do with my time.

2. You have to list with an RE agent to get into the MLS.

3. Our commission is not negotiable.

When I received and offer, I asked the buyer and sellers agent I would accept the offer if they would take 1/2 point each off their commission and that in lieu of the couch the buyer's wanted, that I would include the generator. Seller's agent (who takes a full page ad out every weekend advertising her high ethics and morals told my agent to take the generator Off the counter offer (maybe she would take it) and that she would think about lowering her commission by 1/2 point. The offer was good until 5 pm. The ethical Seller's agent disappeared until Monday morning leaving her broker boyfriend a message that she would not compromise her 1/2 point - she claimed to be at a real estate seminar and could not be reached - I sent several emails and left messages for her Not to Open Escrow on Monday morning until we spoke. She did it anyway. She got her full fat commission of 3% plus bonus. Guess she will use it towards more Plastic Surgery ! Ethical? haha. Yeah I sold my house but the buyers would have paid another 1500.00 too. What a dirt bag.

PS And if you googled MLS and my town and state you got a FAKE MLS Site that led you to a competitor broker that did not Show My Listing at all.

So there you go.

Oh one more thing... I failed to mention the offer from the ethical buyer's agent was $40,000 less than my listed price. Yep, the buyers and sellers agent had me up against the wall. Going into the off winter season in a bubble popping area I caved in to the offer. Only asked both agents to give up 1/2 point on their commission. My agent said okay but later got in my face when it was time to sign and told me she thought she deserved the full 3 percent and reminded me that "I didn't HAVE to sell my house. The ethical agent at the "weekend real estate semimar" wanted the generator for her "home in Mexico". Well this is a true story. Yes, I got out of my house for 100,000 less than my original listing price -- It was a century 21 agent .

Why should you belong to an MLS period? MLS groups in other areas are advertising as MLS but only displaying houses for sale that they have listed.

Google mls and your house for sale (city, state) and you will see what I mean. [/qb][/QUOTE][/QB][/QUOTE]

I have held real estate licenses in several states over the last 20 years. I recently sold my home in a state that I am not licensed in. I interviewed several TOP agents to list my home and this is what I heard:

1. I don't DO Open Houses. I have better things to do with my time.

2. You have to list with an RE agent to get into the MLS.

3. Our commission is not negotiable.

When I received and offer, I asked the buyer and sellers agent I would accept the offer if they would take 1/2 point each off their commission and that in lieu of the couch the buyer's wanted, that I would include the generator. Seller's agent (who takes a full page ad out every weekend advertising her high ethics and morals told my agent to take the generator Off the counter offer (maybe she would take it) and that she would think about lowering her commission by 1/2 point. The offer was good until 5 pm. The ethical Seller's agent disappeared until Monday morning leaving her broker boyfriend a message that she would not compromise her 1/2 point - she claimed to be at a real estate seminar and could not be reached - I sent several emails and left messages for her Not to Open Escrow on Monday morning until we spoke. She did it anyway. She got her full fat commission of 3% plus bonus. Guess she will use it towards more Plastic Surgery ! Ethical? haha. Yeah I sold my house but the buyers would have paid another 1500.00 too. What a dirt bag.

PS And if you googled MLS and my town and state you got a FAKE MLS Site that led you to a competitor broker that did not Show My Listing at all.

So there you go. [/QB][/QUOTE]

What I think:

Borders between countries are coming down. Buyers will invest in Real Estate Globally. Buyers will use the Internet to compare prices, locations and laws prior to investing.

Global Electronic Brokers (who use the internet to find buyers worldwide will be the next big thing.) Yes, real estate brokers will make relationships with buyers and sellers but brokers have to meet clients in person to close a deal.

sorry typo (will not)

Global Electronic Brokers (who use the internet to find buyers worldwide will be the next big thing.) Yes, real estate brokers will make relationships with buyers and sellers but brokers WILL NOT have to meet clients in person to close a deal.

Electric,

You are describing a specific niche, not the whole market.

In regards to your recent experience, why should your agent cut his/her commission? You agreed to a percentage of the sale before hand? Would you have given him/her 4% if you had gotten a deal above ask? I seriously doubt it.

Electric broker sorry but do not agree with your way of thinking.Just because you agree to take less does not mean the burden should be passed on to the agents.Your life problems are not there's and they didn't create your life situation.

We could make a thousand posts on this topic or realize that an opinion is like a %^&*hole,everyone has one.No matter how long you deabte something it's like a pancake it will always have 2 sides.


You said it sold for less did you have it overpriced? Whether you used to be an agent or not you should still trust the realtor.It amazes me former agents are the worst,they think they know it all but are not practicing daily and keeping up with the ever changing industry.If you are so good just list it fsbo.

I have been hearing views like yours over the last 10 years and I haven't seen it happen yet.Actually according to a recent survey by Nar a very small percentage are using internet or discount brokers it's about 9 percent.

This statement couldn't be more off base. Newsflash: We are engaged in a world war that will span generations. Movement between countries of people and money will become more and more difficult as the enemy exploits system weaknesses.

As Paul mentioned, if you are not an active Realtor, you are in the wrong section.

That was my reaction, too: why should agents cut their commission well into a deal?? The agents were doing exactly what he wanted: sell his home at a price mutually acceptable to all parties and according to contracts with terms that they'd all signed off on. Then he got weasely and started trying to strongarm people into cutting their salary.

I do see a problem in that transaction. It does not seem to be the Realtors, though!

-jeff

Newsflash: We are engaged in a world war that will span generations. Movement between countries of people and money will become more and more difficult as the enemy exploits system weaknesses.

As Paul mentioned, if you are not an active Realtor, you are in the wrong section.
--------------------------------------------------

This isn't a private forum group for only realtors is it???

Wouldn't there have been a special field for one's real estate license number to make sure that only realtors would be able to log in and read these threads and post commments?

The way it is set up, anyone can become a member and claim to be an expert with a license. Fact of it is.. one person could easily post under several names without proving their identity or credentials.

That was my reaction, too: why should agents cut their commission well into a deal?? The agents were doing exactly what he wanted: sell his home at a price mutually acceptable to all parties and according to contracts with terms that they'd all signed off on. Then he got weasely and started trying to strongarm people into cutting their salary.

Hi Jeff,
This is not about the money - It is the principle - it is about ethics. These realtors slammed me like a used car salesman. They both knew exactly what I wanted (an extra 3000.00). 1. I did not get what I wanted. The agent presented me with an offer 40,000 less than what she advised me that she could sell it for. Not only this, both agents refused to present the counter offer of 3,000.00 more. Instead they counter backed at the same price and lead me to believe they would lower their commission by 1/2 point. They told me the agent commission would be handled in a separate addendum but the buyers agent disappeared at 5 pm shortly after my counter offer was presented to the buyers. The buyers accepted and there I sat with a contract at 6 percent commission.

As a customer, I felt betrayed. I can't believe the buyer's agent was without a cell phone all weekend. What top agent travels without a cell phone these days? Especially with a large deal ont the table.

All they had to do was be honest. All I expect others reading this to do is say "I wouldn't do that to my client". Please restore my faith in your profession.

I don't treat my clients that way. In fact it felt very sleazy. You can take it or leave it.

This is my time and I am offering you my feedback. I would never go back and trust either agent again.

That doesn't make it ok. Many a shallow person such as yourself has taken that road before you. They are eventually identified, if not by their ignorance then by their IP address.

Well, I wouldn't do to a client what you described, but the whole thing sounds a little squirrely- like there's got to be another side of the story here! First off, agents cannot "refuse" to present an offer, generally speaking. Next, in your earlier description you didn't describe it as them leading you to believe they'd eat a half point, it was that you were insisting that they do and they were resisting it. Let's face it, in an even market or a buyers market the seller is ALWAYS going to be wishing they got more, and the whole point of contractual agreements is so that people don't get neck-deep in a deal and then have one party or the other start to strongarm them! For example, you would have been pretty miffed if the person on the other side had started to insist that you cover his closing costs and demanding that your already-signed deal be amended to say so... right? There's no difference.

The market sets the price of your property, not you, and not your Realtor. Your Realtor did not cost you $40,000. You had the option of not selling. Otherwise, you sell for what the market will bear. In a time of "adjusting" markets things can move pretty fast, and a home's value can be different a few months after a price was mentioned in a listing presentation!

However, at the root of this is someone who came out of a transaction feeling screwed by Realtors, and that's too bad. I'm sorry it happened to you, to whatever extent it actually DID. I don't think it indicts the whole system, though, and I don't think some sort of electronic Realtor getting half the commission solves ANYTHING!

-jeff

[QUOTE]Originally posted by electricbroker:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeff Olsen:
[qb] Well, I wouldn't do to a client what you described, but the whole thing sounds a little squirrely- like there's got to be another side of the story here!
First off, agents cannot "refuse" to present an offer, generally speaking.

Hi Jeff.

It is hard to believe after all that continuing education that an experienced agent who prides herself in High Ethical Morals would forget the real estate code of ethics.


I will detail what exactly happened.

I told both realtors via speaker phone I would accept the offer *40,000 below the listed price IF the agents would take 1/2 point off their commission.. if not, I wanted to counter back 3000.00 higher, no couch but add a generator. My agent immediately agreed to lower her commission. The buyer's agent told my agent via speaker phone that she would consider lowering of her commmission. She asked what kind of generator it was. My agent described it and then the buyer's agent said hmmm, maybe she would take it for her home in Mexico and drop her commission 1/2 point. She was going to think about it.. she told my agent to remove the generator from the offer. She then told my agent to remove the clause "agents to reduce commissions by 1/2 point. "she said it wasn't the correct format to negotiate the agents commission on the counter offer form. We would do "that" separately. I said alright trusting my agents.

So.. I signed the counter offer and waited for the next step (the commission split). I was told to go home and wait.

I received confirmation at 5 pm my counter offer was accepted. Thr seller's agent came to my home and said let's celebrate and asked for a drink. We had a drink laughed and hugged and celebrated for one hour before she asked me to sign the acceptance to the acceptance and dropped the ball on me by telling me the agent did Not accept the reduction in her commission. Then she went on to beg me for her 1/2 commission back. (She had already agreed to it). She told me she felt she deserved it and then cried poor house for 10 minutes. I felt so betrayed and embarrassed that she was putting me in this position regarding her personal finances. Imagine, spending and hour prior celebrating and laughing and she knew she was going to have to tell me the agent refused to compromise her commission. I was furious, would not sign and told her to get in touch with the agent immediately - but the buyers agent was at a real estate semimar and she would not return the messages or emails. What really gets me is the buyers agent takes out a full page ad in the newspaper every weekend advertising her high moral character and ethical values. Go with the Realtor that You can TRUST!

Regarding paying brokers commissions.. FYI - I have worked on straight commission my entire life and do not mind paying full commissions.

Sounds like you had WEAK agents.I would have told you an immediate NO and that my commission has NOTHING to do with the condition of your house,the price the market is willing to bear,or your personal circumstances wanting to get SO MUCH out of the property.After all you DID NOT have to sell.

It doesn't sound like they agreed to do anything,it sounded like a think it over to me from your agent and a definite NO from the buyers agent.Per the listing agreement if they presented an offer agreed upon in the sales price and you wouldn't sell because they wouldn't reduce there commission they could sue you and win for there full commission because they performed to what was written in the contract.


They could tell you the sky is green verbally,but it's what is written that matters.

Electricbroker,

I do not see anywhere in your post that you actually signed any contract to purchase. Without a signed contract you have nothing as there is no deal. What is said orally means nothing which is why real estate transactions are done in writing. I fail to see what you are complaining about as you had no deal unless you signed a contract and if you did that means you agreed to what was in the written contract.

All I wanted was the opportunity to counter back at $3000.00 more - the agents should have told me Simply ***they would Not negotiate the commission***. Very Simple. I would have made the counter offer at 3000.00 higher and paid the full 6%.

The buyers would have taken the deal -

electricbroker,
Sorry but I find your story highly suspect and would love to hear the rest of the story as Paul harvey use to say!

Asking the listing agent to reduce their commission was wrong on your part, especially for someone that claims to have been a licensed real estate agent in several states over the last 20 years.

You keep saying would have but it comes down to Did Not. It was your decision to either accept, reject or counter not that of either agent involved.

Again it comes down to what is put in writing not what was said over the phone. You failed to answer my question. Did you Sign and accept an offer?

I listed a home last September. The homeowners found a "buyer" the previous June, however the "buyer's" wife didn't want to buy a second home. The homeowners didn't find this out till Sept. The "buyer" hung them up for 3 good summer months. The homeowner complained to me "our atty did NOTHING! He didn't call the guy and try to get him to COMMIT! What a crummy atty!" I explained to him that is the r.e. agents job. At lease in my area attys aren't going to hound the buyer to find out if they really are ready willing and able. They spent 3 mos arguing about a c.o. for an addition, which the homeowner kept telling the "buyer" he was NOT getting a c.o. for, and if he kept insisting he would just TEAR THE ROOM OFF and he could buy it at the same price of course, minus the addition! LOL, and people wonder what real estate agents do.

They negotiated a commission when you listed. You wanted to RE negotiate the commission.

Correct. And that's not the appropriate time to negotiate a commission. That's instead trying to strongarm people when in fact he had no real leverage; they had a legal contract and he needed to sell. Silly.

-jeff

They negotiated a commission when you listed. You wanted to RE negotiate the commission. And that's not the appropriate time to negotiate a commission. That's instead trying to strongarm people when in fact he had no real leverage; they had a legal contract and he needed to sell. Silly.

-jeff

Well Jeff,

When "is" the proper time to negotiate the commission? It seems that I have flat out failed in my responsibility as a seller.

I did ask the realtor several times prior to listing about negotiation of the commission. My realtor told me it could be done in the final stages of the negotiation to make the deal happen. She said "it was done all the time".

ALL the realtors who have read my story and responded have failed to restore my faith in live real estate brokers. In fact, I feel even more isolated and stupid for not knowing the p's and q's of handling realtors.

I am now in the market to buy a house. I guess I will head to the AOL fsbo listings in my area since I am not hitting it off with anyone here.

AOL is launching a new area for FSBO listings:
AOL Bargain FSBO

Electric,

So you are going from working with professionals who are licensed and can be held legally liable for your transaction, to working with the exact opposite with FSBO's?

Maybe you should be asking "what questions do I need to ask a potential Realtor" rather than disparaging an entire profession.

Hi Joel,

Yes, I prefer working with the FSBO instead of licensed professionals who can be held legally liable for my transaction.

Most of the agents (in this forum anyway) are

1. poor listeners
2. not sympathetic to the clients needs
3. Do not honor their word. "Unless it is in writing on the contract, it means ZERO"

In fact, I could be SUUED by the RE Agent!!

I am sorry but.. I wouldn't hire ANY OF YOU to be my agent -- well maybe Broker - Read his comments on MLS.

Beware of what you say in a public forum!

Next time try these lines:

"I understand how you feel, others have felt the same way and don't forget to "listen, listen, listen" - read comments and before opening your mouth.... Put yourself in the clients shoes -- otherwise you might end up with the big shoe in your mouth!

I STILL believe THE Electronic brokerage works BEST!!!!!!!!!!


1. It keeps Agents and Homeowners Honest

2. Everything is documented in writing - all communication.

3. It eliminates all the bull**** Or FAT in the DEal

4. It Saves Time by Cutting out the verbal BS!


TIME IS MONEY! TIME IS MONEY! -- HAVE A GREAT 2007!

Thanks Broker - see below


broker
Veteran Member
Member # 5377

posted 06-19-2006 06:21 AM
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This is all about the MLS. If consumers were given access to the MLS to place properties and view sales data then it would be a whole different ballgame. That's what's it working toward. Information control is key and the NAR knows it.... and so do thier opponents.

Interview a Realtor like you were hiring an employee, because that is exactly what you are doing.

Make sure you know up front what services are going to be provided and at what cost. If the cost for you is too high, ask for it to be negotiated prior to listing. If the Realtor says no, interview another, and another, and another until you find the one you are most comfortable with. Don't base the desicion on commission alone, but as a piece of the total package.

I've given back when it's been very close, usually in the form of fixing something a stubborn seller refused to remedy. Once my broker and I gave back a small amount of money to a real complainer. But IMO you were asking for too much.

Here's the problem with what ElectricBroker is proposing. I'll use an imaginary transaction as an example.

-Home is listed at $600k which is an "optimistic" price. The listing agent negotiates a 6% commission of which 3% is offered to the selling broker for bring a buyer. I didn't feel like getting into high math :-) so I rounded the below numbers.
-------

A serious buyer is brought by a buyer's agent. It reads as follows: "buyer offers $580K plus the listing agent is to reduce commission by 2% or roughly $12k to total $592k."

The listing agent is now in a hell of a bind. There's a serious buyer, his seller is breathing hard... what to do. So they counter thus: "counteroffer is for $575k, with the selling agent to waive the 3% commission of approximatly $18k and instead recieve a flat fee of $1000. Offer is then $593k less $1000 fee."

Well, the buyer's agent is in hot water NOW! His buyer WANTS THIS HOME and his fiduciary duties say he is supposed to do what's right for his client... to kill the deal over his commission would be a violation of that, right? After much wailing and gnashing of teeth, they counter with: "buyer offers $575k with all commissions waived on both sides, and each agent to recieve $1000 flat fee at closing."

The listing agent, sensing the jugular, unhappily recommends countering thusly: "price is to be $580k with commissions waived and listing agent recieving $1250 flat fee at closing and buyer's agent to receive $750 flat fee at closing".

Buyer and seller are very happy with this arrangement and the sale proceeds forwards under those terms.
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And THAT is why, in Oregon at least, the agent's commission cannot legally be negotiated as part of an offer, if I remember my schoolin' right! The agent's commission simply cannot be a regular part of the negotiation or it will BECOME the point of negotiation!!

-jeff